Boatnerd Discussion Forum

Now the canadian gov is trying to do the same thing with auto workers and farmers with this Trans-Pacfic Trade Deal as CETA,again thousands of jobs are at stake her people we have to stop this gov now!

This is what I've been telling you people for the last six months the CETA agreement is very bad for canadian sailors both union and non-union we must band together and stop this there will be thousands of jobs gone thousands! Call your local MP tell a friend to call it has to be stopped

and once the genie is out of the bottle allowing EU flag flag ships to work in specific trades it will be hard to hold then back from commencing work on other sectors.Dredging and re-positioning boxes are the tip of the iceberg.

Canada already has cabotage laws but they are not acknowledged in this agreement.
Just to make it clear what the Agreement says.
Under heading 16 INTERNATIONAL MARITIME TRANSPORT SERVICES,
Article 2 Obligations:
Each Party shall permit international maritime transport service suppliers of the other Party to provide [b]feeder services[/b] between ports of that Party.
Article 5 Definitions it says:
[b]feeder services[/b] means the pre- and onward transportation of international cargo by sea, including containerized, break bulk and dry/liquid bulk cargo, between ports located in a
Party. For greater certainty, in respect of Canada, feeder services may include transportation between sea and inland waters, where inland waters means those defined in the Customs Act.

It can't be talking about Canadian ships carrying cargo between European ports because there is no restriction on that. So it must be talking about European ships carrying all types of cargo between Canadian ports. (The pre- transportation of international cargo...between ports located in a party.)
The scandal in all this is that we have cabotage laws in Canada. Essentially the law is being overuled by this international agreement without any legislative process. At the same time thousands of good jobs bringing in millions of dollars in tax revenue will be given away.
http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/ceta-dokument-101.pdf

God Bless America, and the Jones Act, here in Canada, most everything has or will be flushed down the drain, it was predicted when the Seaway project was implemented, as was the invasion of foreign species in our Canadian and American waters....Politicians.....hmmmmmm !

There is no way that the canadian gov has the money or the resources to inforce the safety,taxes,inviromental,issues of these foc vessels.how many people in the US do you think would want to sign on to CETA? Not many I bet!

Boat buddy just because a ship has an eu flag and registration doesn't mean it has European nationals of that flag, how many UK flagged ships that call in Montreal have British crews? NONE. Oceanex run between Halifax and Montreal. How would the Canadian public react if the rail or haulage companies used cheap foreign nationals to carry their goods. There would be nationwide protests.

[quote]CETA fully protects the right of the Canadian government to adopt or maintain any measure affecting the investment in or provision of marine shipping services,... [/quote]

Interesting how this is worded. It "protects the right of the Canadian government" to take protective measures, but it doesn't say the government will actually take (or maintain) those measures.

And the definition of feeder service in the document Paul Beesley posted is much broader than Montreal to Halifax container trade. It also includes inland waters, and bulk and break bulk service as well as containers. Unless it is further restricted in one of the many appendices.

[quote]feeder services means the pre- and onward transportation of international cargo by sea, including containerized, break bulk and dry/liquid bulk cargo, between ports located in a Party. For greater certainty, in respect of Canada, feeder services may include transportation between sea and inland waters, where inland waters means those defined in the Customs Act.[/quote]

Finally, article 13 talks about mutual recognition of professional qualifications. Although not mandatory, it sounds like the parties can adopt these agreements if desired. Its not just talking about mariners, but I think licensed mariners could be included. If ever adopted, an EU licensed engineer could work in Canada and a Canadian licensed engineer could work in the EU.

From the government of Canada, http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/agr-acc/ceta-aecg/index.aspx?lang=eng


[b]Myths and Realities About Canada’s Free Trade Agreements[/b]
Fact Check: CETA and the Canadian Marine Shipping Industry

CETA fully protects the right of the Canadian government to adopt or maintain any measure affecting the investment in or provision of marine shipping services, with the exception of the following three specific services where limited access has been provided to the EU.

[b]Dredging Services[/b]

[b]Container Repositioning:[/b] the repositioning of empty containers within Canada on a non-revenue basis

[b]Feedering:[/b] In the context of CETA, feedering is the transport of goods between the port of Halifax and the port of Montréal by a vessel registered in an EU member state. No feedering can be provided to any other port.

There are currently no Canadian ship owners providing feeder services between the ports of Halifax and Montréal.
CETA will require any potential EU provider of a continuous service between Halifax and Montréal to use vessels listed on the national registry of an EU member state and bearing the flag of that EU country. This will ensure a competitive environment since the operators of those vessels are required to adhere to the labour, tax, environmental and safety standards of that EU member state.
[b]CETA will also permit a one-way feedering service to be provided between Halifax and Montréal, if that trip is a single voyage that includes an international leg.[/b] The vessel is required to be listed on the registry of an EU member state and bear the flag of that state.
Use of [b]“flags of convenience,”[/b] which often allow more liberal labour, tax, environmental and safety standards, [b]is not permitted for these feedering services.[/b]
In addition, any ships transiting in Canadian waters must adhere to Canada’s strict safety and environmental regulations at all times.

If you go to the seafearers international union web site you will see the whole side of CETA and the problems this will cause not only for siu members but all canadian sailers

I can find no limitation on EU-registered ships trading between Canadian ports.

Attached are links to CETA published by Canada and the EU. As with all documents of this nature the wording may be a bit obtuse. Would someone point out where it limits EU ships to empty containers?

If the limitation is a referral to another law would someone please point that out to me.

The Canadian Government website:
http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/agr-acc/ceta-aecg/text-texte/16.aspx?lang=eng

The EU website:
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2014/september/tradoc_152806.pdf
Go to: 16.INTERNATIONAL MARITIME TRANSPORT SERVICES

CETA will also allow foreign ships to trade between Halifax and Montreal. Most Dutch ships employ Filipino ratings , at the moment the siu is suing the Canadian government for allowing foc vessels and crew to trade between Canadian ports. If the contracts were available I'm sure Canadian companies would move the containers. Once again the shipping industry and the seafarers who work on them are completely dismissed. Remember to work in Canada you have to be Canadian citizen or landed immigrant , makes no difference wether your on a ship or on land

[quote="boatbuddy"]According to published reports I have seen on CETA the only exceptions to existing cabotage regulations under the Canada Shipping Act is for moving empty containers. .........[/quote]

If that is the case, that is a totally reasonable exception. Seeing as there are virtually no domestic container shipping anything that gets more of that trade is a good thing. Better it be on Canadian ship but more important that we get some containers moving on the water.

According to published reports I have seen on CETA the only exceptions to existing cabotage regulations under the Canada Shipping Act is for moving empty containers. These could be carried by vessels flying the flag of countries of the European Community trading between Canada and Europe. The only vessels operating presently and capable of doing this trade that might develop are the various Netherlands flags ships. The Netherlands is not a low wage country. Their wages are as high as North America with excellent benefits. They are competitive because they have very small crews. They are not a flag of convenience. Most of the trade between the Great Lakes and Europe is in FOG ships, many Canadian owned or chartered (Fednav, Canfornav). Even the Polish owned ships are FOG. The container trade is only restarting into the lakes and it is almost all into US ports. Perhaps one day the Floragracht or Virginiaborg on its return from Cleveland will pick up some empty containers in Toronto and drop them in Montreal. Remember also the non US or Canadian ships have to carry pilots which is an added cost. McKeil's new ship can operate without pilots if the officers are qualified and not have this extra cost.

I would like to see that part of CETA that distinctly states that Canadian ships can become FOG and still trade between Canadian ports. If it exists, show it please.

The CETA agreement would allow canadian shipping companies to reflag their vessels in a foreign country and hire foreign crew and still trade in canadian ports using foreign workers

I'm not getting this.... if she is now registered/owned by McKeil and in turn flagged Canada with intentions of working the Seaway how does the CETA agreement affect this? (Perhaps I should find and read this agreement?). Since McKeil is now owner how will people loose jobs? I sent an email to McKeil inquiring about the ship and the intentions..... this is the reply from the Marketing Manager dated 15 Sept:
**Good Afternoon Joanne,
Thank you for contacting McKeil Marine via our website. The M/V Spavalda is a shallow draft 15,000 DWT vessel which is now in our fleet and has been reflagged Canadian. She will be utilized for a range of cargoes throughout the Seaway System. She was specifically designed for use in the coastal European trade as well as the major European river systems - very similar characteristics to the St. Lawrence Seaway and ideal for trading in our operating regions. We expect to hold a formal christening for the vessel in Spring 2016.
Regards,
Brent**

Tell that to the thousands of people who will loose their jobs when they reflag vessels in foreign countries I think we should block the seaway if this happens!

nothing to stop them reflagging her foreign if it is shown to be viable when compared to Cdn flag. the point is the ship is ideal for the business.

We have to stop CETA there are thousands of canadian jobs at stake also a direct attack on the Jones Act in the US the only ones who are going to benefit are the big companies reflagging their ships in foreign countries for huge tax breaks and cheap labour,we need to wake up people and stop CETA !

[quote="astz"]she looks ideal for moving empty containers between Canadian ports which is expected to become an active new business under the recently signed Canada-Europe trade agreement[/quote]
CETA has not been signed yet. Also, the provisions for moving empty containers between Canadian ports in CETA will permit the empty containers to be carried on foreign flag ships.