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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 7, 2021, 2:39 am 

Joined: December 6, 2014, 4:51 pm
Posts: 654
Guest wrote:
The scrap yard takes possession of the vessel once it arrives at their yard. Once she's fully dismantled at Port Colborne, her registry will be closed, though sometimes it's closed earlier - depends on the sales agreement. As of today, December 6, 2021, the eagle.org Record website shows that she's still owned by Bell Steamship.

GATX was paid an insurance settlement in late 2019 of $10.5 million ($8.1 million after tax) as an insurance settlement for the loss of the St. Clair.

As to the person(s) legally responsible, well that is up to the courts to decide in the coming years. It's a civil matter that will involve the underwriters (as they will want to recover the money they paid out to GATX). It can get costly for all involved, but we should all be thankful that no one was injured or worse.

- Brian


That's it? $10.5M seems a pittance to an asset I guesstimate to be worth in the $60M+ range.


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 6, 2021, 10:38 pm 

Joined: April 28, 2010, 6:37 pm
Posts: 986
Per Transport Canada, St. Clair is owned by Marine Recycling Corp.


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 6, 2021, 7:40 pm 
The scrap yard takes possession of the vessel once it arrives at their yard. Once she's fully dismantled at Port Colborne, her registry will be closed, though sometimes it's closed earlier - depends on the sales agreement. As of today, December 6, 2021, the eagle.org Record website shows that she's still owned by Bell Steamship.

GATX was paid an insurance settlement in late 2019 of $10.5 million ($8.1 million after tax) as an insurance settlement for the loss of the St. Clair.

As to the person(s) legally responsible, well that is up to the courts to decide in the coming years. It's a civil matter that will involve the underwriters (as they will want to recover the money they paid out to GATX). It can get costly for all involved, but we should all be thankful that no one was injured or worse.

- Brian


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 6, 2021, 7:19 pm 
It is now owned by the underwriters.


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 6, 2021, 7:09 pm 
So who owns the boat? Did GATX sell it to American Industrial with the rest of the fleet ? I can't imagine that the Insurance Company owns her as I assume they just write a check for it's insured value and let the Owner decide whether to fix it of not. I would assume that whoever owns it gets the scrap value, if any.

Does the scrap yard take possession when the St. Clair hits Canadian soil?


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 6, 2021, 6:58 pm 
So who is held responsible for the fire and loss of the st.clair? The company that was doing the work on her during layup Or the company that employs the watchman that wasn’t on board at the time of the fire?


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 6, 2021, 10:29 am 
ChannelFever wrote:
Who determines if a vessel is sea worthy enough to make a trip across the Lake? I'm especially interested in how they determine if the fire weakened welds and even the strength of the steel plates.

She'll be going slow but still subject to the rolling a light ship would endure. I assume they can't put ballast water in her.


The underwriters will require insurance for the towing. I'm sure that prior to the decision to declare the St. Clair a constructive total loss was based on assessments and investigations by the American Bureau of Shipping, USCG surveyors, ASC marine engineers and the underwriters engineering representatives. The steel would have been drilled to assess the cross-section properties of the various steel structures in the hull. Many times it's obvious that plate steel and structural elements are damaged, due to warping, as an example.


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 5, 2021, 9:15 pm 
Who determines if a vessel is sea worthy enough to make a trip across the Lake? I'm especially interested in how they determine if the fire weakened welds and even the strength of the steel plates.

She'll be going slow but still subject to the rolling a light ship would endure. I assume they can't put ballast water in her.


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 5, 2021, 8:59 pm 
Does anyone know if the Manistee is getting towed out this year? I believe I had previously read she was going to Port Colborne this year however, with it being December I am questioning if that will happen.


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 5, 2021, 8:06 pm 

Joined: July 2, 2010, 1:36 pm
Posts: 772
Guest wrote:
I'm not usually one to ask a question like this, but let's say that somehow it's 1942 again and every hull is needed (Even those that the underwriters declare a constructive total loss), and the St. Clair had the same fire.

For anyone more in the know about just how damaged she is, is she repairable or so damaged that in effect a new ship would have to built to return any part of her to service (Like some wrecked EMD locomotives back in the day that returned to the factory for repairs and were "rebuilt" by constructing a brand new locomotive and recycling a few usable components of the wreck)?

In 2021 it's easy for even a non-engineer like myself to see why she's a constructive total loss. 45 years old, oddball size, and the decline in coal tonnage left little doubt what the result would be after seeing pictures of the fire underway. But just curious if she's actually repairable in theory, or if structurally her hull is too weakened by the fire to have made that possible under any scenario.


If recall serves word was that it wasn't just that she was weakened, its that so much of her lower hull was warped by the heat, fire, and subsequent flooding that resulted from fire-fighting efforts. If a hull is warped badly enough it would be extremely difficult to set it true again without basically rebuilding the entire hull anew. Perhaps someone can shed a bit more certain light on that detail, I could be wrong about it.


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 5, 2021, 6:58 pm 
Excellent question if she would be repairable if times were like WW2. Many of the warships damaged at Pearl Harbor were severly damaged and sunk/capsized. Yet they were salvaged to fight in World War II. Ore carriers, such as the Eugene J. Buffington and George M. Humphrey were badly damaged and partially sunk. The Eugene J. Buffington came closest to being scrapped because of severe structural damage to her mid-section. St. Clair would still have been scrapped as to replace the damage means building a new ship.

St. Clair is completely burned out. The belts under her cargohold caught fire and burned for a couple of days and the intense heat meant investigators couldn't board the St. Clair for 10 days. Rubber fires burn very intensely and the heat combined with being docked in icy waters would change the molecular structure of the steel. It's an uncontrolled environment for steel to be heated in, and that always make the ship questionable in terms of its strength.

If you were a sailor, would you want to sail on a ship whose structural integrity was questionable? I wouldn't.


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 5, 2021, 1:05 pm 
I'm not usually one to ask a question like this, but let's say that somehow it's 1942 again and every hull is needed (Even those that the underwriters declare a constructive total loss), and the St. Clair had the same fire.

For anyone more in the know about just how damaged she is, is she repairable or so damaged that in effect a new ship would have to built to return any part of her to service (Like some wrecked EMD locomotives back in the day that returned to the factory for repairs and were "rebuilt" by constructing a brand new locomotive and recycling a few usable components of the wreck)?

In 2021 it's easy for even a non-engineer like myself to see why she's a constructive total loss. 45 years old, oddball size, and the decline in coal tonnage left little doubt what the result would be after seeing pictures of the fire underway. But just curious if she's actually repairable in theory, or if structurally her hull is too weakened by the fire to have made that possible under any scenario.


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 4, 2021, 11:13 pm 
yes im sure other tug {s} will assist leaving toledo but once on the lake im sure molym1 will do the towing but herself to port colborne then get assist from other mckeil tugs


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 4, 2021, 6:59 pm 
With a gale watch in effect from Monday morning through late Monday night, they won't be in towing out the St. Clair until Tuesday at the earliest. I would expect other tugs to be assisting in the tow, if towing the St. Clair is what Molly M will be doing after arriving in Toledo.

- Brian


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 Post subject: Re: St. Clair - scrap tow?
Unread postPosted: December 4, 2021, 5:21 pm 
She is. Leaving Tuesday AM weather permitting.


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