Historical Perspective in Photos

Discussion board focusing on Great Lakes Shipping Question & Answer. From beginner to expert all posts are welcome.
Jon Paul
Posts: 888
Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Jon Paul »

Guest wrote:That's a lot of trips by mid-August. I'm guessing that's an indication of the White's speed. What was her max speed loaded and in ballast ?

I'm not sure what the max speeds for the White were over its service life but we averaged 15-16mph(17 under special circumstances ) depending on weather conditions loaded and in A+ Ballast if the rush was necessary 20 mph lite.
We had started the '77 Season with quite a few Duluth - Ashtabula runs with Red Ore but by August We had also made a lot of shorter hauls too. An Escanaba - S Chicago round trip was basically 3 days and our other main run was Marquette - Trenton which was 4 days round trip.
Guest

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Guest »

How long did the strike last and what did you do during that time ? Great photos ! TIA
Guest

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Guest »

That's a lot of trips by mid-August. I'm guessing that's an indication of the White's speed. What was her max speed loaded and in ballast ?
Jon Paul
Posts: 888
Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Jon Paul »

Photo's of the Charles M White were taken Aug 13, 1977 during Miners Strike. We laidup at Rogers Terminal on Calumet River after already making 30 trips in the 1977 Shipping Season.
Attachments
ASH1.jpg
Im not sure what these 2 boats are at scrap dock in Ashtabula. I think one might be the E G Grace
Im not sure what these 2 boats are at scrap dock in Ashtabula. I think one might be the E G Grace
white5.jpg
white4.jpg
Tom Girdler can be seen in the background unloading at Republic Steel
Tom Girdler can be seen in the background unloading at Republic Steel
I believe its the Canadian Hunter behind the White at Continental Grain
I believe its the Canadian Hunter behind the White at Continental Grain
white1.jpg
willow.jpg
tad.jpg
sAG.jpg
Peter Misener
Peter Misener
gulf.jpg
AB Watchman Jack Kilmar and a deckload of Ice
AB Watchman Jack Kilmar and a deckload of Ice
Jon Paul
Posts: 888
Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Jon Paul »

Alex wrote:Jon Paul, viewing the impressive photo of the Patton plowing through the ice, was the bow on the triplets just that brawny or had they been reinforced? Thanks
To my knowledge Alex, nothing was done to strengthen the bow other than being built really well with good steel when they were converted from C-4's.
I'm not a Marine Archetect or Engineer but in Photos that I have of the bow that I took during layup, the framing seems to be much closer together than on most boats. Even after several winters of Winter Navigation deep into February, there wasn't the noticeable waffling like you could see on many of the newer boats and especially the footers.
Alex

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Alex »

Jon Paul, viewing the impressive photo of the Patton plowing through the ice, was the bow on the triplets just that brawny or had they been reinforced? Thanks
Jon Paul
Posts: 888
Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Jon Paul »

Rob W wrote:
Darryl wrote:It would have been something else if they could have found a way to save one of the Triplets or the Cliffs Victory as a museum ship. Their contribution to the Great Lake shipping economics, history and lore are something the likes we'll never see again. Thank goodness you and others have compiled a photographic record and documentation of this..[/quote


Totally agree 1000%

Rob W
I understand and your right it would have been special to save one of them but the reality is that museum ships rarely pay even for their upkeep.
A case in point is the old USCGC Mackinaw here in Mackinaw City. If it hadn't been for the Shepler family stepping in and generously helping out in several ways, it would never have happened.
Rob W

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Rob W »

[quote="Darryl"]It would have been something else if they could have found a way to save one of the Triplets or the Cliffs Victory as a museum ship. Their contribution to the Great Lake shipping economics, history and lore are something the likes we'll never see again. Thank goodness you and others have compiled a photographic record and documentation of this..[/quote


Totally agree 1000%

Rob W
Jon Paul
Posts: 888
Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Jon Paul »

mopar tim wrote:The photos of the Pontiac are priceless. One of my favorites only got to see it a few times so thanks for posting.
I always liked the Pontiac too. Fellas that I knew that sailed on it said she was a good boat and pretty easy to work.
I was a bit surprised that they were stopped by the ice considering they had 5,000 hp.
They usually only ran Silver Bay - Republic/Cleveland but with all the ice issues in the St Mary's River, Cliffs tried to slide in some Esky loads.
mopar tim
Posts: 151
Joined: December 6, 2014, 6:03 pm
Location: Port Huron

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by mopar tim »

The photos of the Pontiac are priceless. One of my favorites only got to see it a few times so thanks for posting.
Guest

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Guest »

Darryl wrote:It would have been something else if they could have found a way to save one of the Triplets or the Cliffs Victory as a museum ship. Their contribution to the Great Lake shipping economics, history and lore are something the likes we'll never see again. Thank goodness you and others have compiled a photographic record and documentation of this..
Amen to that....
Darryl

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Darryl »

It would have been something else if they could have found a way to save one of the Triplets or the Cliffs Victory as a museum ship. Their contribution to the Great Lake shipping economics, history and lore are something the likes we'll never see again. Thank goodness you and others have compiled a photographic record and documentation of this...
Jon Paul
Posts: 888
Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Jon Paul »

Here is the bow shot of Patton smashing through solid blue ice
Attachments
image1.jpeg
Guest

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Guest »

Great story and pictures ! It looks like the triplets were well suited to winter running and the occasional icebreaker duties.
Jon Paul
Posts: 888
Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Jon Paul »

Unfortunately the close up view of the Patton bow didn't upload to the post.
I will post it separately tomorrow.
Jon Paul
Posts: 888
Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Jon Paul »

TRIP #43
We entered Rock Island Passage @ 07:55 on 2/3/78 and went to the assistance of Fleetmate Pontiac stuck in 2.5'/3' of Ice approx 4 miles SSE of Minneapolis Shoal LT(just off Drisco Shoal) @ 08:45. Temperatures at the time were near 0* F.
Stopped in the Ice 1/2 mile NE of Escanaba LT @ 10:30 waiting dock space.Wilfred Sykes on Southside of C&NW Dock, Mesabi Miner on North.
Tied up C&NW Dock @ 00:20 2/4/78 - begin loading @ 00:45
Numerous stoppages.
Finished loading and depart @ 11:25 (02/04/78) - 13,604 mixed load of Marquette & Groveland Pellets.
Outbound Rock Island Passage @ 13:30 headed for Republic Steel/S Chicago


The photos of the Thomas F Patton were taken 7 miles SSE of Escanaba Lt and it was an impressive site seeing them blaze trail through solid Blue Ice. If you look closely you can see large pieces of ice flying outward from the bow across the smooth surface of the ice pack.
Attachments
PONT1.jpg
PONT2.jpg
PONT3.jpg
PONT4.jpg
PONT5.jpg
PAT2.jpg
SQ0002.jpg
Com.jpg
CE.jpg
for DS
for DS
Jon Paul
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Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Jon Paul »

Jared wrote:What was the wave height during that particular time frame when the winds were knocking close to a 100 mph? Was there any real threat of losing the boat?
Hi Jared
The effects of the Blizzard made it real difficult to see and judge wave heights.
I have found observing and guessing a sea state to be VERY subjective. When your pitching, twisting and rolling in a heavy sea, you really have no perspective like standing on shore and watch waves hitting a breakwall.
One man's 20 footer is another's 25.
That being said, at the time of the highest winds we were well enough off shore to be feeling the full effects of a sea running unhindered for several hundred miles and the consensus between Mates and Captain was an average of 25' with a lot of 30'+ mixed in.
The highest seas were between Wind Point and Rawley Point which we took a bearing abeam @ 16:50. At that point we adjusted course somewhat more NE
And the winds went NNW so we were picking up a bit of a Leeward shore effect.
This was actually our 3rd full fledged STORM for the month. On Jan 2nd we crossed Lake Superior in NW Storm with peak winds at 55+, the Storm I wrote about earlier when I posted the pic of Storm Warnings at Fort Gratiot Lt on Jan 10 and then this one.
The other 2 had really given me a lot of confidence in the Whites seaworthiness in just about any kind of weather, and the Blizzard of '78 put any lingering doubts to rest. That and trusting a very good crew with qualified professional Mates, Engineers and a well seasoned Heavy Weather Skipper, lol
Jared
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Joined: December 6, 2014, 4:51 pm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Jared »

What was the wave height during that particular time frame when the winds were knocking close to a 100 mph? Was there any real threat of losing the boat?
Jon Paul
Posts: 888
Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Jon Paul »

I need to make a correction to my original post on the Great Blizzard of '78.
I consulted my log for that trip and found that we had not entered Little Bay De Noc through Porte Des Morte Passage which is the normal LCA course but rather used the Rock Island Passage route on Jan 25th @ 22:50
My notes indicate that the Captain felt that Rock Island was more open and almost 2 miles wider than the the narrower and shallower Deaths Door.
It would also mean less time plowing in darkness through the heavy ice in the bay.
The strongest steady winds we encountered, North 80-83 knots (90-95mph) were recorded @ 12:15 while between Milwaukee and Port Washington.
I was the 12-4 wheelsman and I well remember the harrowing climb up 4 flights of stairs to the pilothouse and how the snow felt like buckshot hitting my face.
It's one of the many times I was very thankful that we had 10k horsepower. I thought back on those poor souls in the 1913 storm facing winds like that and more with 1800hp or less and getting blown off their heading and broaching in the trough of the heavy seas.
When we finally got to Escanaba we stopped in the ice 1/2 due East of the CN&W Dock @ 01:10 (1/26). We joined the H Lee White, Roger Kyes and our fleet mate Pontiac already holding in the ice and waiting out the storm.
By the time we took our place at the loading dock on the 28th, we had had to clear 18+ of snow off the deck with hot water hosing it down.
We departed Escanaba on Trip# 41 @ 15:50 (1/28) with 13,615 tons of Empire Pellets destined for Republic Steel/S Chicagp
Bookworm

Re: Historical Perspective in Photos

Unread post by Bookworm »

ds wrote:The Great Blizzard of 1978

I remember this harsh storm very well. I was a member of the crew of the MV Wolverine. We were sailing from either Taconite Harbor or Marquette with pellets for Indiana Harbor. We experienced the brunt of the storm while sailing south on Lake Michigan. As I recall, the majority of the time we felt its fullest fury was during the nighttime hours. The ship was relentlessly climbing up one large wave and plunging down the same for many hours on end. By first light, it became evident how much ice had accumulated all over the ship. A pretty amazing sight and I now wish I'd had a camera to record such a spectacle. Once in port, there was lots of work to do before we could even think about unloading, as the hatch covers, hatch crane, and hatch crane railings had to be broken out of their icy grip. The unloading boom was all iced up as well. This required lots of work using sledgehammers and hoses supplied with hot water. Many crewmembers were assigned to this task, even the gateman and conveyorman. It was snowing hard the majority of the time and temperatures were frequently sub-zero.

During this time the E.J. Block was running shuttles in Indiana Harbor and tied up nearby. A few of her crew came aboard at lunchtime to eat, visit, check out first-hand all the ice, and ask questions about our winter navigation experiences. They were pretty amazed by the Wolverine's appearance. Later that day, or perhaps the following day, one of the more modern Cleveland Tankers vessels (either the Jupiter or Saturn) entered port and slowly sailed right past us. Another missed photo opportunity as this ship was easily more encased in ice than any I'd seen prior to or since then. The crew on deck of the Wolverine all stopped working and just gazed in astonishment. They definitely put us to shame in terms of amount of ice relative to the size of the ship.

This turned out to be our last trip of the winter season and, after a very slow unload, we sailed to S. Chicago and laid up.
Thanks for sharing. Makes me feel cold just reading your well-detailed account!
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