Leon Falk Jr. and Paul H. Carnahan

[Les Weston]

My Father used to call them "Traveling Pagodas".

[Jon Paul]

There was a lil rhyme bout the Republic/Cliffs C-4's among the crews passed down through the years.."short and squatty..all a** and no body". In all seriousness, the Republic C-4's were good heavy weather boats. Even though they appeared top heavy due to a three tier forward cabin and large stack, their '72 foot beam on a 600' ship compensated for that. They did tend to roll a bit when light and in ballast. I remember one time upbound for Marquette with a NNW wind and rolling so bad the anchors were swinging out of the anchor pockets and slamming back in on the opposite roll...a very eerie sound and unnerving vibration for us in the forward end housing. More than ample power was also a plus. Having been out in Storm Warning and 25' plus waves on multiple occasions, I always had confidence in my ship and crew.

[Guest]

If I remember correctly, the fastest vessels on the Lakes were the package freighters of Canada Steamship. The Fort Henry or the Fort York would easily outdistance the Cliffs Victory or the "Red Tomatoes" or the Joe Thompson. I think the discussion really is about the fastest "ore boat" rather than the fastest ships on the Lakes!

I was a wheelsman on C. M. White and sailed with Capt. Ray long who had been on all three of the Republic C-4s as well as the Cliffs Victory. According to him the White was the fastest of the 3 C-4s and had been in three unofficial races with the Victory. The White won the 2 races when both were light and in A Ballast and the Victory won the 1 race when both were loaded. His belief was that when loaded, the White having a wider beam and blunter bow was slowed a bit compared to the narrower Victory and its flared bow. As for the Fort Henry I can attest to the fact she was speedier than the above mentioned boats. One time that I can remember they overtook us just east of Superior Shoal downbound and beat us to the Soo locks by over an hour. The CSL package freighters are not a fair comparison however. They were considerably smaller, lighter and because of their hull design and if I remember correctly 4000 plus horsepower, they were built for speedy delivery of their cargo.

How did the Republic C-4 conversions such as the Charles M. White handle in heavy weather? Their cabins always made them look somewhat top heavy and I also believe they made their relatviely short overall lengths appear even more squat to the eye. Moving to Michigan in 1980 I only caught a glimpse of one of these ships in Cleveland Cliffs colors (and only of its cabins rising above some houses along the river) as it passed down the St. Clair River. Unfortunately, all three went to scrap later that year and I missed out on seeing any of them again. Regardless, I have always been interested in these conversions.

[Jon Paul]

I was sailing for Interlake in 1975, jumped fleets to Cliffs and went on the White in May 76.

[standuffer]

Jon Paul...
Did you wheel on the Charles White during the 1975 shipping season?
if so, we were shipmates...
I was a relief deckhand on her from 7/09 - 9/26.

Smooth Sailing
John S.

[Jon Paul]

We went to Bethlehem Steel a couple times in 1976 and I believe once in 1977. They were make up trips.

[wlbblw]

Jon Paul, did you ever take the White into Buffalo?

[Jon Paul]

The Fort Henry was 461' long x 56' beam and had a 4500 shp steam turbine. She typically carried package freight upbound which was loaded through side doors in the hull and would sometimes carry grain downbound loaded through hatches on the spar deck. The one time I mentioned before about running with them, they were not carrying a full load down to their summer draft marks. My understanding from a friend who had sailed on her was that her top speed was 18mph. The White, light and in A ballast, could break 21mph with 23 nozzles feeding the turbine. Seriously, this is comparing apples to oranges. The Forts flyer's where a pleasure to watch. Beautiful lines and fine ships that were gone way too early. Many wonderful childhood memories watching them load at Northern Navigation Dock at Point Edward, ON across the river from Port Huron.

[Darryl]

What did the Fort Henry/Fort York have for engines, and what was its size, etc.? Were they iron ore carriers?

[Jon Paul]

If I remember correctly, the fastest vessels on the Lakes were the package freighters of Canada Steamship. The Fort Henry or the Fort York would easily outdistance the Cliffs Victory or the "Red Tomatoes" or the Joe Thompson. I think the discussion really is about the fastest "ore boat" rather than the fastest ships on the Lakes!

I was a wheelsman on C. M. White and sailed with Capt. Ray long who had been on all three of the Republic C-4s as well as the Cliffs Victory. According to him the White was the fastest of the 3 C-4s and had been in three unofficial races with the Victory. The White won the 2 races when both were light and in A Ballast and the Victory won the 1 race when both were loaded. His belief was that when loaded, the White having a wider beam and blunter bow was slowed a bit compared to the narrower Victory and its flared bow. As for the Fort Henry I can attest to the fact she was speedier than the above mentioned boats. One time that I can remember they overtook us just east of Superior Shoal downbound and beat us to the Soo locks by over an hour. The CSL package freighters are not a fair comparison however. They were considerably smaller, lighter and because of their hull design and if I remember correctly 4000 plus horsepower, they were built for speedy delivery of their cargo.

[bhale849]

I was on the Lee A'snear sister the Str. Middletown (American Victory). They were both coverted T-3s - lower Horsepower than the T-2s, C-4s, or Victory Ships. Both T-3 conversions had that sharp saltwater bow; but neither were near as fast as the 3 "racers" Charles M. White, Joseph H. Thompson. or Cliffs Victory.

[Guest]

If I remember correctly, the fastest vessels on the Lakes were the package freighters of Canada Steamship. The Fort Henry or the Fort York would easily outdistance the Cliffs Victory or the "Red Tomatoes" or the Joe Thompson. I think the discussion really is about the fastest "ore boat" rather than the fastest ships on the Lakes!

[Guest]

They were fast compared to standard 600 ft plus lakers which averaged 10-14mph loaded. The T-2's generally had a 7250-7700 hp steam turbine. On the original 523' tanker's that could provide enough speed to keep up with convoy's and battle groups but in a 730' laker it was a bit below average for what was being put in the maximum size boats coming out of the shipyards at the time. The C-4 and Victory conversations were a different story. Those were 10,000 hp turbines being put in smaller ships. The Republic triplets were 600', the McKee Sons was 633', Joe Thompson was 714' and the Cliffs Victory after lengthening was 716'. The Victory had only a 62' beam however and with that flared bow it made up for the extra length.

How did the McKee Sons stack up against the other C-4 conversions? I assume she was slightly slower when empty with the weight of her unloading equipment.

[Guest]

Wasn't there quite a rivalry going between the Charles M.White, Cliffs Victory, Thomas F.Patton, Tom Girdler, and Joe Thompson as to which was the speediest boat on the Lakes? If I recall, wasn't the Lee A., with her flared, knife edge bow, in the frakas as well?

I believe the rivarly you speak of took place during the early 1950s when the first postwar salt water conversions began appearing on the lakes. The Lee A. Tregurtha did not enter service untile nearly ten years later as the Walter A. Sterling for the Cleveland Cliffs fleet. I have never heard of anything mentioned of the Sterling being part of this competition.

[Duluth Guest]

Wasn't there quite a rivalry going between the Charles M.White, Cliffs Victory, Thomas F.Patton, Tom Girdler, and Joe Thompson as to which was the speediest boat on the Lakes? If I recall, wasn't the Lee A., with her flared, knife edge bow, in the frakas as well?

[Jon Paul]

They were fast compared to standard 600 ft plus lakers which averaged 10-14mph loaded. The T-2's generally had a 7250-7700 hp steam turbine. On the original 523' tanker's that could provide enough speed to keep up with convoy's and battle groups but in a 730' laker it was a bit below average for what was being put in the maximum size boats coming out of the shipyards at the time. The C-4 and Victory conversations were a different story. Those were 10,000 hp turbines being put in smaller ships. The Republic triplets were 600', the McKee Sons was 633', Joe Thompson was 714' and the Cliffs Victory after lengthening was 716'. The Victory had only a 62' beam however and with that flared bow it made up for the extra length.

[Guest]

As they were converted from saltwater tankers, where either of these ships ever considered as being very fast as were some of the other saltwater conversions of the 1950s and 1960s?