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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 8:47 pm 

Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm
Posts: 89
Mr Link wrote:
Just about anything man-made, placed perpendicular to the seas in a location like that and then left there for months unattended will fall apart. That would be a very difficult place to build even a rock breakwall.

Image

That said, I do agree that changes in environmental regulations and norms are no reason to avoid painting. It just increases the cost of business.


Apparantly my post wasn't read completely. I never impied that the hull condition had anything to do with the Miner's loss and never even mentioned the Algoport.

As I said, the Miner is an extreme example but the simple fact remains, the hull failure on both sides of the hull, seaward and land side, disintegrated only along the horizontal lines of were the hull had excessive rust damage and where paint had protected it.
Hull maintenance is a Cost of doing business and the upkeep of a valuable investment not cosmetic for photo purposes.
Spar deck maintenance is critical too. As someone mentioned earier, red lead primer and good paint did wonders. I had heard many stories from guys I had sailed with where this had been neglected and telescoping hatches jammed, clamps wouldn't tighen and winches pulled loose from the deck.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 7:59 pm 

Joined: December 6, 2014, 3:43 pm
Posts: 486
Just about anything man-made, placed perpendicular to the seas in a location like that and then left there for months unattended will fall apart. That would be a very difficult place to build even a rock breakwall.

Image

That said, I do agree that changes in environmental regulations and norms are no reason to avoid painting. It just increases the cost of business.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 7:45 pm 

Joined: July 19, 2010, 9:21 pm
Posts: 149
The Canadian Miner and Algoport losses are in separate category altogether and can't be blamed for lack of maintenance or painting. Those hulls were "worn out" and both subjected to non-lake conditions on their final delivery voyages. If I remember right, there were numerous US Lakers lost in the Atlantic on their scrapyard trips in the 1970's-80's.
From the Toronto Marine Historian, March 1974, there was a report of the loss of Algoma's old Michipicoten, while on scrap tow to Europe:
"There has now come to light an amazing series of photographs of the whole sinking and they are, to our knowledge, the first photos ever of a laker sinking while en route to a European scrapyard, although eleven ships have been lost in tow during the last decade."
The Miner grounded onshore, causing unknown damage, and then battered by waves for months. The Algoport was caught on the edge of Tropical Storm Dujuan (sp?), if I remember right, and subjected to large ocean waves. One can only think if she would have been allowed to sail under her own power from Balboa to China, she may have been sailing around today as a rebuilt ship.
I take it as a bonus when a ship is painted nowadays. But, it's also not worth getting worked up about. Boatwatching is a hobby.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 5:50 pm 
The paint issues seem to be really revolving around Algoma they only seem interested in maintaining the new builds, I would think they don't have any long term plans for any ships that don't have Equinox in there design.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 3:46 pm 

Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm
Posts: 89
I realize this is an extreme example but it's still no coincidence that the hull on the Canadian Miner failed on both the port and starboard sides exactly at the point where the most rust had occured.
I also find environmental concerns a rather dubious reason for not keeping hull maintenance up.
We all should take the environmental impact of Great Lakes shipping seriously. Boats leak minor amounts of oil and fuel , cargo is spilled during loading and unloading, self unloaders clean their holds and tunnels...the impact of rather small amounts of paint seems a stretch considering the consequences of what could happen if hulls aren't properly maintained.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 2:53 pm 
Forgive me if I'm wrong but, in the 50s and 60s and possibly other years, it seems that all boats received new hull paint every winter. The cabins were generally done during the sailing season. There must have been more money budgeted for upkeep. I remember putting more than a few drips/drops of hull black into the water at the Hocking Valley coal dock while the deckhands painted the hull next to us.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 2:24 pm 
Laker Capt you said it perfectly! I remember when lakers were painted at least once a season and touched up here and there all season, could you imagine what the old skippers would think of the state of some of the ships.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 11:47 am 
Been around shipping my whole life plain and simple they can pretend there being enviromentally friendly all they want, but there being cheap and its there rite to do it paint doesn't haul more cargo and if those numbers for paint are correct you can see its expensive! Half a million dollars can be the difference from the CEO getting his multi million bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 11:34 am 

Joined: July 19, 2010, 4:51 pm
Posts: 404
Painting the boat does extend its life as it reduces corrosion. Corrosion eats away at the steelwork and eventually it must be renewed. Painting in the holds I used to think important for the same reason. In days gone by lead based paints were used and underwater paint contained chemicals to stop marine growth on the hulls .When this was cleaned off in drydock by shot bllasting (sand ) the residue had to be taken to a dump site which could handle toxic chemicals. Painting the ships hulls now is expensive and as many have noted it does not help pay the wages if a boat is well painted or rusty looking. I used to take pride in a smart looking boat and used to say it was a good advertisment for the company.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 10:02 am 
Andrew wrote:
I'm not going to get into an environmental debate on this thread, nor should anyone else, but frankly that doesn't bother me at all. I have to assume rust isn't great for the water either.


Rust is simply oxidized iron...a simple element found everywhere in nature; it's also a mineral that our bodies need to live. Paint meanwhile is oil based..

I'm willing to bet that the "customers" receiving ore, coal, etc couldn't care less about the look of the boat bringing their product...do you think Ford or GM (for example) execs even know the names of the ships who haul ore that ends up in their cars, or care about their appearance? I know FMC used to take pride in their own fleet when they had it...but that's long in the past. What about the rail cars...those are always in rough looking shape. No one seems to mind graffiti and grime on rail cars.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 9:00 am 
Guest wrote:
Environmentally conscious companys keep painting to a minimum, and boat nerds need to start appreciating that. As a crew member I fully agree with the idea that a well maintained ship gives a sense of pride in the job, but I also know that when the hull was being painted by the crew, paint is getting in the water. For that reason many mate's and captain's don't put a lot of emphasis on hull paint. Their worried about paint slicks on the water.
The environmental costs are reflected in the cost of painting in the dry docks as well. Cleaning up the sand blast and enclosing the paint/work area and otherwise maintaining environmental standards has increased the cost significantly. Its my understanding that the cost of painting a seaway size laker in a Canadian dry dock is close to 500,000, in a U.S. yard its much cheaper. Difference in environmental standards?
What paint goes on comes off over the years. 100-200 gallons to paint a hull and a lot of it ends up in the water over the years.
Boat nerds please ease up your criticism. In a lot of cases this environmental damage is due to your pressure. The companies and customers don't care, and it has nothing to do with the longevity of the ship.

Since each poster sees this issue from one or two of a variety of perspectives, and each has the right to express an opinion, only by doing so can we get a more complete picture of the components involved and, thus, the whole. Thanks for your input.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 13, 2018, 7:55 am 
I'm not going to get into an environmental debate on this thread, nor should anyone else, but frankly that doesn't bother me at all. I have to assume rust isn't great for the water either.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 12, 2018, 10:23 pm 
Environmentally conscious companys keep painting to a minimum, and boat nerds need to start appreciating that. As a crew member I fully agree with the idea that a well maintained ship gives a sense of pride in the job, but I also know that when the hull was being painted by the crew, paint is getting in the water. For that reason many mate's and captain's don't put a lot of emphasis on hull paint. Their worried about paint slicks on the water.
The environmental costs are reflected in the cost of painting in the dry docks as well. Cleaning up the sand blast and enclosing the paint/work area and otherwise maintaining environmental standards has increased the cost significantly. Its my understanding that the cost of painting a seaway size laker in a Canadian dry dock is close to 500,000, in a U.S. yard its much cheaper. Difference in environmental standards?
What paint goes on comes off over the years. 100-200 gallons to paint a hull and a lot of it ends up in the water over the years.
Boat nerds please ease up your criticism. In a lot of cases this environmental damage is due to your pressure. The companies and customers don't care, and it has nothing to do with the longevity of the ship.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 12, 2018, 9:18 pm 

Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm
Posts: 89
Guest wrote:
Would a Great Lakes cargo vessel's lifespan be significantly shorter if it were never painted? Most of the boats seem to rust from the inside out, whether due to cargo-assisted corrosion or salt water in the ballast tanks. I suppose that the stack and name need to be painted for identification purposes, but the rest of the boat could come out of the shipyard as bare steel and still likely last for 30 or 40 years.


Let me put it this way for some prospective;
Would you buy an unpainted pickup truck, leave it outside in all kinds of weather, drive it through terrain where the metal would get scratched and dinged up daily and expect it not to rust and suffer body and frame failure in a shorter period of time than one that had been painted, washed and maintained?..and thats even taking into account that vehicles are made with more durable and rust resistant steel and alloys than ships.
Just look back at the Canadian Miner for an example of severe hull failure.


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 Post subject: Re: American Mariner paint job
Unread postPosted: February 12, 2018, 3:32 pm 
As a business owner with trucks it is my belief that keeping my trucks looking good results in my employees taking better care of them. They are proud of what they drive and it shows in how they take care of the trucks and it shows in the work they perform for our customers.


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