Adieu CSLer Richelieu

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Guest

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by Guest »

Steve Bratina wrote:Has there ever been any thought of just having a mass storage location like the U S does with Navy ships?
I've contemplated that before. For a country that had hundreds of old cargo ships in lay up during the 1980's (And even spent millions reactivating a Victory ship just to make sure that fleet still could be useful in short order), it surprises me that some of the younger and larger vessels weren't held by the government until at least the end of the Cold War.

Seems like the scrapping of the William Clay Ford, the Arthur B. Homer, and several other large, modern, and efficient American lakers during the 80's was pretty nearsighted given what we had in our mothball fleets along our coasts for a strategic reserve in emergencies at the time.

Of course in hindsight they would've never been needed, but I don't think anyone could've said that with 100% certainty thirty years ago.
Steve Bratina

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by Steve Bratina »

hausen, I found your response very interesting reading. Thank you .

Steve
hausen
Posts: 803
Joined: July 2, 2010, 1:36 pm

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by hausen »

Steve Bratina wrote:A question from a novice in ships. With the economic advantage that ships have to haul goods, is it because there is nothing to fill the holds with at this time that we are getting rid of good ships? ... I would also think that the price of scrapping a vessel in good condition would not even cover the cost of a new boat.
I don't think Algoma is getting rid of a ship in good condition in this case. What's being communicated in this thread is that Richelieu / Algocape was most certainly a good ship, and likely lasted longer than her designers intended. Like most Canadian lakers, she spent a significant part of her career in the salt water of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, however, and that wreaked havoc on much of her internal steel (ballast tanks and systems, etc.). She was a gearless bulker meaning shoreside equipment did the job of unloading her. About half of the cargoes she delivered over the years were iron ore / iron ore pellets, and that shoreside unloading process can be less than kind to cargo hold steel. If I'm not mistaken, word around here for the last few years was that Algocape was pretty worn out and had gotten to the point where continuing to replace the rotten steel throughout her tanks and holds was no longer going to be cost-effective.

Steve Bratina wrote: Has there ever been any thought of just having a mass storage location like the U S does with Navy ships?
There have certainly been times and locations when this has effectively happened, though the decisions on whether, where, and when to place ships into long-term layup is the domain of the owning company, and to my knowledge has never been coordinated on a larger scale on the Great Lakes. One of the bigger examples: as the massive U.S. Steel fleet began showing its age, natural ore deposits were exhausted, and the U.S. economy experienced cyclical downturns from the late 1950s through the 1970s, U.S. Steel periodically had many ships in long-term layup at several locations around the Great Lakes, especially places like Duluth-Superior and Milwaukee. Other American companies often had similar layup fleets at ports like Buffalo and especially Toledo. There have been many, many occasions where the economy picked up or another company purchased a laid-up laker with a new trade in mind, and ships that had been in layup for years returned to service. On the Canadian side, the grain trade out of Thunder Bay saw some big fluctuations during its long overall decline from the boom years of the late '70s -early '80s down to the relatively stable levels reached in the early 2000s and continued today. Some seasons rode the ever-decreasing average, some seasons saw sharp temporary upticks in the amount of grain going down the Seaway. While this process unfolded (and while the large fleet of 1960s-vintage bulkers was still younger and in better shape), Canadian companies held many ships in reserve at ports like Thunder Bay, Sarnia, Toronto, and Montreal during the quieter years or seasons, and activated them during busier times.

Today, Lower Lakes Towing holds the retired laker CTC No. 1 in reserve as a replacement for a future retirement from its fleet. Interlake Steamship Company's John Sherwin, in long-term layup since 1981, has come very close several times to being reactivated, and rumors are circulating again about her being towed to Sturgeon Bay for the work that would be necessary to bring her back to service. American Steamship Co. is holding on to the American Victory at Superior and the American Valor and American Fortitude at Toledo, and Arcelor-Mittal has the Edward L. Ryerson at Superior as well. All of these ships are held in long-term layup because those companies know that these ships are still in great shape and it's much more expensive to build new American freighters than it would be to return these ships to service if demand were to increase.
Steve Bratina

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by Steve Bratina »

A question from a novice in ships. With the economic advantage that ships have to haul goods, is it because there is nothing to fill the holds with at this time that we are getting rid of good ships?
I would think that shipping should be looked upon with greater respect by Government as it provides good jobs, requires people with both skills and those who love to just work, requires a good amount of raw steel to build and maintain a vessel and needs no track or road to go places (from lock to dock).
I would also think that the price of scrapping a vessel in good condition would not even cover the cost of a new boat. Has there ever been any thought of just having a mass storage location like the U S does with Navy ships?

Steve
BobG
Posts: 162
Joined: June 8, 2011, 4:33 pm

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by BobG »

Right on, Fireman12. While I admit a slight preference for the Davie-built ones, that collection issued from Davie & Collingwood in the mid-60s may be the finest-looking lakers ever spawned.

And those FMs: on a warm, calm, midlake evening, their music was concert-quality.
fireman12
Posts: 245
Joined: October 26, 2010, 2:12 pm
Location: Canada`a Ocean Playground

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by fireman12 »

Wow . I know from sailing on the Beavercliffe Hall , another Davie built laker , and her sisters , all about those Fairbanks Morses , Loved `em , noise and all . And from what I learned from my colleague BobG here , aren`t those pretty good photos of the old girl loaded in her last years under Hall`s banner .

She looks good , I`ll miss that Davie / Collingwood look that was a familiar design of laker that got built one after the other , as each ship launched was always labelled ` she`s a good job ` by the sailors on the beach , waiting to ship out at the Union Halls . Lakers , canallers first , then the conversions , to the 730 jobs . CSLs Package Freighters , Paterson`s coastal fleet , to steam and then diesel self unloaders . The fact that they are almost all gone just blows me away .

The USS Edsen is on her way to her new home Bay City . Another heritage vessel saved with some hard work , but here a impossible task because of curators not brave enough to accept the challenge and go for something when it becomes available . It can be done , we keep getting outdone by the Brits and US lads constantly . The ships that have been laid to waste here that should gave been saved and restored is longer than my arm . Classic , historic vessels , not one afloat today . Thank God for the kindness of the people in Douglas , MI and them letting the Keewatin come back home to Port McNicoll .
1000islander
Posts: 18
Joined: April 20, 2010, 8:31 am

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by 1000islander »

I can still hear the sound as the FM lakers powered up through the Brockville Narrows...late 70's.
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BobG
Posts: 162
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Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by BobG »

It is sad to see these graceful giants passing from the scene. Richelieu/Algocape is/was one of the best-looking of a handsome lot. With all due respect to her appropriate second name, her first suited her noble mien.

I hope to avoid any photos of her being dismembered on that Turkish beach.
RMartens

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by RMartens »

The Chief on the Hon. Paul Martin (Atlantic Erie) told me the Sulzer was the Cadillac of marine engines. Having never owned a Cadillac, I took that to mean they were pretty good. I worked on that one, the Glossbrenner and the Richelieu and they all seemed reliable to me. One of the Glossbrenner's turbochargers cracked once but I think that was more of a wear and tear issue rather than a reliability issue. He said when Sulzer wanted to sell somebody an engine, they would show them the engine room of the Lake Manitoba. Although the FM multi diesels used more expensive fuel, some of them like the Simcoe, Manitoulin and the Maplecliffe Hall sure sounded cool.
Guest

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote:Any comments or thoughts on why Sulzer was chosen as main propulsion? Most of that generation seemed to use FM. Thanks
The Sulzer engines installed in Richelieu, Frontenac, Lake Manitoba (now Algomarine), A.S. Glossbrenner (now Algosteel), Ralph Misener (now Gordon C. Leitch or Don) and Tadoussac burn cheaper fuel than FM diesels. They are also heavier, which slighly lessens cargo capacity. Others can speak to reliability and maintenance issues from experience, but I understand that multiple FM engines linked to a single shaft have presented challenges.
Richard Jenkins
Posts: 94
Joined: March 17, 2010, 9:22 am

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by Richard Jenkins »

Back in 1984 I was a 12-year-old kid on the way home to Minnesota after a family road trip to New England and Quebec. We came back through Canada and crossed back into the US at the Soo, which included stopping to watch a couple of ships come through the locks. At the time, I was already interested in ships (of any kind), but my main "thing" was old ocean liners, and my interest in Great Lakes freighters didn't fully develop until a couple years later. Still, any time I could see a big ship up close, that was a cool thing in my book.

First up was the Edward B. Greene. I remember thinking her name was appropriate (she certainly did "be green" in her Cleveland-Cliffs colors), but although I look back now and wonder what on earth was wrong with me, I have to admit I actually thought she was ugly at the time, and not worth a click of my Kodak Instamatic 126 camera loaded with a cartridge of Kodachrome.

Then came Richelieu. I'm not sure if it was her more traditional CSL color scheme, or the fact that our names began with the same four letters, but somehow I connected with this boat. I snapped off three pics that day, none of them particularly good. All of them were either obstructed or shot into the sun. They were nothing more than tourist snapshots by a kid with a point-and-shoot camera, certainly not the work of a serious hobbyist out to document the passage of Great Lakes history.

My boatnerding career did't "officially" begin until three years later with a shot of the J.B. Ford in Milwaukee, and fortunately I was able to get better shots of the Richelieu (and Algocape) over the years too. However, the seeds for what would become my new hobby were sown on that day at the Soo in August of 1984, and this photo of Richelieu was the very first time I ever pointed my camera at a laker.

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Farewell, old girl.
Wheelsman

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by Wheelsman »

I have to go along with fireman12 on his thoughts on the "Reesh". I can recall her coming up Toledo's Maumee River in the late-80's for a grain load. She looked so clean, distinctive and graceful as she sailed past my vantage point on Front Street, red hull and all. While we're on the subject of odes, I have fond thoughts of the Canadian Miner, as well. She would be special to Cleveland area boatwatchers as the last one to use the Hulletts here in 1992, correct me if I'm wrong, as the Lemoyne.
Guest

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by Guest »

Any comments or thoughts on why Sulzer was chosen as main propulsion? Most of that generation seemed to use FM. Thanks
Chief Stormy

Re: Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by Chief Stormy »

You know, it is news like this that make you realize we are seeing the changing of the guard. The backbone of the Canadian fleet is evolving and the vessels that had the traditional laker look will soon be gone. With the new class of vessels coming out, there will be few, if any of the old school lakers left on the Canadian side, except for the handful with Lower Lakes.
I am not sure what to make of the new vessels coming out of the Chinese shipyards. Design wise they seem to be superb, but, based on personal experience, will their steel and welds be as strong and as good as what went in to the fine old vessels such as this one?
fireman12
Posts: 245
Joined: October 26, 2010, 2:12 pm
Location: Canada`a Ocean Playground

Adieu CSLer Richelieu

Unread post by fireman12 »

Kind of sad once again seeing another one of the good jobs from the `60s era heading to the scrap beach hell overseas . Algocape , originally the Richelieu , was built at Davie Shipbuilding in Lauzon Quebec and launched April 5 `67 , during Canada`centennial year and Montreal`s Expo `67 . It was CSL`s poster child that year , a model of it was used at the Canadian pavilion at Expo 67 to illustate an Canadian model icebreaker in action .

I did two relief engineer stints on her , she was a well kept job down below , the 2nd`s standing orders included no liquid leakage of any kind into the bilges . Dry , and clean as a whistle . The Six cylinder Sulzer main engine was what stood out about this class of laker , it pretty well ran great with proper maintenance . Very nice engine room . The Frontenac , her sistership , converted to a self unloader , is testimount to the durability of this vessel class .

So farewell Richelieu , you were on of the originals .
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M.V. Richelieu in Lock 1 ub 11.01.87.jpg
M.V. Richelieu on Lake St. Clair ` 80s.jpg
M.V. Richelieu  built 1966 seen here at Davie.jpg
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