Boatnerd Discussion Forum

by **Jon Paul** » December 26, 2014, 11:44 am

tarcticus wrote:
PDBLK25 wrote:Take a closer look at the "young and fit" Lakers that went to scrap. The '80s were the worst economic times on the Lakes since the Great Depression. Many of the ships scrapped were sold by liquid-cash starved steel firms with new but idle boats. Other boats scrapped (the T-2 & C-4 Conversions) were fuel hogs. As for the American Fortitude -- she is being scrapped by ASC, a firm that prefers MVs, never wanted steamers in the first place, and it's mistakes getting her to scrap make you suspect their true intent. None of this applies to the Sykes or Ryerson.
Aren't those circumstances are exactly why one might worry about the ex-Inland boats? However unlikely...the economy can turn upside down in a year or two. One or two corporate mergers and corporate perspectives on assets and liabilities can change drastically.

Economic recession, near depression, of fairly rapid onset in 2008.

Inland to Ispat to Mittal (spun off to CML). All of that change since 1998.

I am an industry outsider with only a geographic connection preceeding my interest in all of this. I would seriously be interested in a more opinions from insiders on whether, in particular the Sykes, can be *reasonably* assumed to be low risk from retirement in the coming decade or two. Would be great to put the thought out of my head.

One factor not mentioned in the above quotes is that a great many of the "young & fit" lakers became excess tonnage when all the footers came out. When one footer can carry what five 600+ lakers can carry with one crew and less fuel that's a huge cost differential. Also most of those boats that went by the wayside in the early 80's were straight deckers. With only a few exceptions, the American lakes fleets by 1985 were either built as selfunloaders or a conversion.
The Sykes and the Block are very versatile boats and have many years of profitable service ahead of them. If CML ever went under, you can rest assured that LLT/GR would jump at the chance to have them.

by **tarcticus** » December 25, 2014, 3:52 pm

PDBLK25 wrote:Take a closer look at the "young and fit" Lakers that went to scrap. The '80s were the worst economic times on the Lakes since the Great Depression. Many of the ships scrapped were sold by liquid-cash starved steel firms with new but idle boats. Other boats scrapped (the T-2 & C-4 Conversions) were fuel hogs. As for the American Fortitude -- she is being scrapped by ASC, a firm that prefers MVs, never wanted steamers in the first place, and it's mistakes getting her to scrap make you suspect their true intent. None of this applies to the Sykes or Ryerson.

Aren't those circumstances are exactly why one might worry about the ex-Inland boats? However unlikely...the economy can turn upside down in a year or two. One or two corporate mergers and corporate perspectives on assets and liabilities can change drastically.

Economic recession, near depression, of fairly rapid onset in 2008.

Inland to Ispat to Mittal (spun off to CML). All of that change since 1998.

I am an industry outsider with only a geographic connection preceeding my interest in all of this. I would seriously be interested in a more opinions from insiders on whether, in particular the Sykes, can be *reasonably* assumed to be low risk from retirement in the coming decade or two. Would be great to put the thought out of my head.

by **Guest** » December 25, 2014, 2:37 pm

The Fortitude has been sold for scrap many weeks ago and ASC has nothing to do with the journey or future plans of this vessel.

by **PDBLK25** » December 25, 2014, 12:06 pm

southsideriverrat wrote:Unfortunately we have seen dozens(?) of relatively young and fit lakers go off the the ship breakers. Mostly in the 1980's but the Fortitude is headed there at the moment. It is younger than the Sykes and partly modeled after her as well

Take a closer look at the "young and fit" Lakers that went to scrap. The '80s were the worst economic times on the Lakes since the Great Depression. Many of the ships scrapped were sold by liquid-cash starved steel firms with new but idle boats. Other boats scrapped (the T-2 & C-4 Conversions) were fuel hogs. As for the American Fortitude -- she is being scrapped by ASC, a firm that prefers MVs, never wanted steamers in the first place, and it's mistakes getting her to scrap make you suspect their true intent. None of this applies to the Sykes or Ryerson.

by AL » December 25, 2014, 5:09 am

Crew quarters on the Ryerson in the after house are on the main deck. The windows on the upper deck are, on the port side the crews mess, the center windows is the Licensed dining room, and the starboard windows are the passenger dining room. The only crews quarters on the second deck is the Stewards room, just aft of the Passengers dining room. The galley is just aft of the dining rooms with a door on the port side.

by **tarcticus** » December 24, 2014, 1:58 pm

Yes the Silversides is moored in a little cutout along the south side of the Muskegon channel.

I doubt either sub would compete with or compare to the prospects of a big ore boat museum down here. They are both nearly invisible and seem to me to have less regional relevance. Also the two ex-Inland boats have a beauty, as has been discussed, that might up the attraction a little bit.

I also think the idea of the Ryerson in Manitowoc is a good one. In addition to the local marine museum there is the steady flow of tourists from the Badger, some of whom might be also diverted to a laker museum. Manitowoc is a much smaller community obviously. Funding might be (even more) out of reach there.

I had forgotten about the Milwaukee Clipper in Muskegon. It has struggled there and I don't know if it has ever really been open for business.

I am now recalling how negative the Chicago Tribune has been toward the Badger while during all of the recent political machinations. But even the erstwhile Senator Durbin couldn't kill it. Here in Chicago he would have a lot more clout.

by **Guest** » December 24, 2014, 11:29 am

The U505 Sub at the Museum of Science and Industry has been moved indoors in a new addition to stop it from deteriorating.
The Sub Silversides was in Chicago for quite awhile as a training vessel and then as a museum ship until it was towed to Muskegon in the late 70's I think. Don't think it worked out to well as a museum in Chicago.

by **southsideriverrat** » December 24, 2014, 11:25 am

Guest wrote:
THM wrote:I seem to recall a submarine in Chicago
THM
Yes the Museum of Science and Industry has an old sub. It is on dry land...right next to the museum.

Small correction: It seems that the U-505 german sub at the museum was moved indoors in 2004.

by **southsideriverrat** » December 24, 2014, 11:04 am

PDBLK25 wrote:It is way too early to talk of either ship becoming a museum.

Yes yes I hope you are correct.

I would echo mopartim's thoughts on this.

Unfortunately we have seen dozens(?) of relatively young and fit lakers go off the the ship breakers. Mostly in the 1980's but the Fortitude is headed there at the moment. It is younger than the Sykes and partly modeled after her as well.

No one can predict the drifts of the economy. There is also the reality of corporate mergers and such, with the associated uncertainty of management priorities. So, for the expected future on an ore boat, what seems "safe" now might evaporate in just a few years time. Well that is how it seems to me.

There is also the reality that both of these ex-Inland boats have relatively lower payloads and therefore are less economically efficient that the newer/larger boats. So while access to the smaller ports works in their favor one never knows.

My speculating on this stuff stems from a preservation desire, not any hope that these boats are permanently retired anytime soon.

by **mopar tim** » December 24, 2014, 10:42 am

Believe me when I say I would love to see them continue to sail. Realistically this economy will never recover to the point it was when the Ryerson was still active. So now is the time to bring it to light and hope that something can be done to save one or both of these great historic vessels. I have never sailed myself but I understand the significance of preserving some of these ships, When they are gone they are gone there is no going back.

by **fireman12** » December 24, 2014, 10:41 am

RCRV wrote:In the rear structure I see what appears to be a row of windows all around. Is that the crew quarters? If not what is it?

it could also be the Engineer Officers and/or the Passengers lounge
same as the Canadian built lakers from the `60s , like the Algoma Montrealais , on her last days steaming , as Canada`s last steam
ship.

Merry Xmas everyone , have a blast with family and friends over
the holidays and stay safe .

by **Guest** » December 24, 2014, 10:33 am

THM wrote:I seem to recall a submarine in Chicago
THM

Yes the Museum of Science and Industry has an old sub. It is on dry land...right next to the museum.

by **PDBLK25** » December 24, 2014, 9:22 am

As someone who worked on both the Wilfred Sykes and Edward L. Ryerson it pains me to hear talk of either ship made into a museum. Yes, to comply with EPA mandates, the Sykes will eventually have to be dieselized, but it is very doubtful that CMT or Acerlor-Mittal would scrap or barge her instead of installing a new powerplant. so she has many more years of sailing ahead of her.
As for the Ryerson she is (through holding companies) Acerlor-Mittal's own ship. It would seem to me that it is (or will) be cheaper to use her to bring Minnesota ore to Hamilton, than to pay Algoma or CSL to do the same. If not, she will be converted to a self-unloader before she would be barged or scrapped. Thus, she has some amount of years ahead for her. It is way too early to talk of either ship becoming a museum.

by **THM** » December 24, 2014, 9:00 am

I seem to recall a submarine in Chicago
THM

by **garbear** » December 24, 2014, 4:24 am

I know Manistee has the City of Milwaukee and the Acacia. I don't know how they draw in the summer. Neither has a connection to Manistee, so I'd think that would be a tough sell.

by **saygoodnightkevin** » December 23, 2014, 11:50 pm

RCRV wrote:I'm not really very familiar with details of lake boat construction so this question may be naive.

The Ryerson seems to have an excessive amount of super structure
when the front and rear sections are combined.

Is it just the angle of the photo or is this a unique design for some reason?

Back then there was great pride in quality of construction and having beautiful and functional designs. There was plenty of money around back then to do these things as well.

The Ryerson reflects the extravagance and excesses of the time she was built in, which have since passed into history and which I doubt we'll ever see again unfortunately.

by **mn brett** » December 23, 2014, 8:16 pm

Actually The William A Irvin continues to do well in Duluth,Duluth is very touristy.There is a steady stream going through all season,and a Ghost Ship spook House all October. They tried adding The Coast Guard Sundew and a Tug,but People were not interested in them. So they pulled them out and The Irvin keeps them coming.
I looked up Museum Boats in Chicago and I didn't find one,if there is not one wouldn't there be a huge interest in one?,in one of the biggest City's on the lakes? Thank You. mn brett

by **tarcticus** » December 23, 2014, 7:29 pm

Guest wrote:It would be nice, but for the most part, from what I've read most museum ships lose money. Where would be a logical place to put one? Who would want one?

Well...all those who remind us repeatedly that the "market" for museum industrial ships may already be saturated by the Irvin/Valley Camp/Boyer/Mather are almost certainly correct.. And, that the cost of maintaining such a vessel is enormous and exhausting, seems beyond question as well.

*However*...there must be over 10 million people living around the southern rim of Lake Michigan...and no ore boat museum exists in the area to the best of my knowledge. The area has an industrial history of an awesome magnitude. I suspect there is a place here for another ore boat museum.

I've pondered a number of ideas...

One idea is Navy Pier in Chicago. It was recently ranked as the 26th most popular tourist destination on earth. It seems far fetched doesn't it? A permanent spot there seems out of the question. But I've thought about an idea where a boat could be at Navy Pier in the summers and towed to a lower profile location in the off season. The annual move might generate media publicity and maybe become an annual ritual in the rhythm of life in Chicago.

We also have here the Museum of Science and Industry. It is place with real political and financial heft. While there is no place to moor an old ship near the museum it might be worth exploring some way to get an ore boat museum associated with the MS&I.

Another idea is the old north slip of the USS South Works. Many ideas for redevelopment of the south works land have come and gone. I don't know exactly what is proceeding there presently. Certainly the lakeshore part will become a southern extension of Chicago's lakefront parks. One wonders if something could be developed there...a museum as an attraction on the southern end of the Chicago park system. Possibly administered in conjunction with the Museum of Science and Industry.

Those are just a few things that have crossed my mind. Of course there must be places in Wisconsin, Indiana, or Michigan that could be considered as well.

I for one would be willing to expend some time and energy to save the Sykes from the shipbreakers when that time comes.

by **Ray** » December 23, 2014, 7:05 pm

Guest wrote:It would be nice, but for the most part, from what I've read most museum ships lose money. Where would be a logical place to put one? Who would want one?

In an *ideal* world, if the Ryerson were to be museumed, it should be at Manitowoc where she was built. The last, and arguably pinnacle of the Manitowoc boats. There's already an established museum the that knows how to maintain a boat (submarine USS Cobia)

Not sure where idealism collides with cold hard reality when it comes to space and finances, but I suspect it's far less feasible than I'd hope.

by **Guest** » December 23, 2014, 2:45 pm

RCRV wrote:In the rear structure I see what appears to be a row of windows all around. Is that the crew quarters? If not what is it?

Dining rooms, I think.

Boatnerd Discussion Forum

Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Post a reply

Expand view Topic review: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie

Re: Inland Steel fleet to Lake Erie