Boatnerd Discussion Forum

SailorDoug wrote:Hike metals has been around for deckads and has kept going, no bailouts no roll overs. Companies like this deserve a fair turn from the government. They recently built the Niagara falls tour boats and then assembled them in the gorge.

Is there any real evidence that their bid was not treated fairly? I am sure they think so seeing as they lost, but any loser will think that if they believed in there bid.

Wages are only one part of the picture. Several western European countries still have healthy shipbuilding industries and south Korea is a close number two, and they have wage rates similar to north america.

As to the future, wages have been going up in China for one. And not insignificantly.

Hike metals has been around for deckads and has kept going, no bailouts no roll overs. Companies like this deserve a fair turn from the government. They recently built the Niagara falls tour boats and then assembled them in the gorge.

we can't build commercial ships in NA competitively until far east and ex soviet bloc yards pay closer to NA wages and that won't happen anytime soon. Propping up yards with tax money doesn't make sense because the unions will take that a sign to ask for more more more and a vicious cycle.

we're struggling to build naval vessels because the owners haven't invested in new technology so now we get a situation where the govt pays way over the top to wealthy folks like Irving to do what they should have been doing all along. Madness!

Its all about value added if we build at home sure it's going to cost more.But everyone gains as people work and Goverment gains in taxes. It's time to keep Canadians working and keep what's left of our shipbuilding technalogy. Depending on stricky selling off natural resources has not worked as the harper Goverment has found out. Oh by the way take a look at just where the American dollar is compared to Canadian dollar. Just maybe it's because they buy in the US.

On a build like this wages are likely to be near 50 % of the costs. With Canadian tax rates that could mean as much as 50% of the funds ($10,000,000) coming back to the government.

Tax Payer wrote: With that being said, the vessels coming from overseas are seldom cheaper options when it comes to replacement parts. I know first hand how hard it can be to find just a simple item like a replacement light bulb for a warning light in the engine room. When the Algoma Tankers Algocanada and Algonova came over, such items were needed shortly after arrival. If memory serves me correctly, the bulbs had to be sourced from Europe and cost a fortune compared to the dollar or less they would have cost if a domestic part could have been used. Building ships in other countries off the lakes is definitely a double edge sword depending on if you look at the money being spend before or after delivery.

A well thought out and comprehensive Request For Proposal would address the issue of readily available spare parts in the buyer's geographical area. If you have to buy ridiculously expensive common spare parts like light bulbs then the RFP was weak.

The article mentions that Hike was partnerining with a Quebec based shipbuilder. If that was the yard at Levis, formerly Davie, no wonder the proposal was rejected. That yard has gone bankrupt several times, even on government contracts only to be resurrected with government money to go bankrupt again. Financial stability was one of the criteria.

Nothing against Hike Metal Products, but I think they were dreaming pretty big if they thought they could get this contract on their own. The requirements call for a ferry that is a minimum of 60 meters (200 feet) long. As far as I can tell, the longest vessel they have ever built is about 43 meters (140 feet) long. One quick look at their yard on Google Maps shows how difficult it would have been to build there. Granted, they could build (or assemble) it somewhere else, but then the taxpayers would be funding not only the ferry but a new facility as well (unless Hike already has a second yard I am not aware of).

Any boat builder that wants to grow wants to get contracts for bigger and bigger vessels. But a 40 percent jump in size on one contract would be a giant leap.

if the only way shipbuilders can compete is when they are propped up by taxpayers it's a 'fake" economy and like Margaret Thatcher said "pretty soon you run out of other peoples money". In fact the real value is in the jobs sustained by the ongoing operation of the vessel like crewing, fuel, stores, maintenance, sales and marketing, tourism etc. in a similar manner to when when one buys a foreign car and the dealership jobs materialize like sales, maintenance etc

from a tax payers point of view i would rather spend the money in canada ....the jobs would produce revenue for many many companies around the ie grocery.shopping malls .and the many jobs to supply material to the job...its just not the cost of the ferry its what it brings to the region...but does it surprize anyone with th leadership in ontario

get over it, it's called competition. if you can't compete get out of the business or look at your cost structure.
perhaps rather than shovelling taxpayers money into the pocket of a "connected" friend of the government such as what is happening with our military vessels and Irving/Seaspan they went out and got the best bang for the buck.

I would like to know how much wear is put on a short run ferry,approx. 17 knots per leg each trip, compared to what appears to be about 10000 knots on salt water for a delivery trip. Also what will the cost be for any observers,and/or supervision to be in Chile for this build. Maybe someone only wanted a holiday on my dime.

From an Ontario Tax Payer perspective, if the Chile option is the cheapest option, then I think it is great that the Ontario government decided to run with it. With that being said, the vessels coming from overseas are seldom cheaper options when it comes to replacement parts. I know first hand how hard it can be to find just a simple item like a replacement light bulb for a warning light in the engine room. When the Algoma Tankers Algocanada and Algonova came over, such items were needed shortly after arrival. If memory serves me correctly, the bulbs had to be sourced from Europe and cost a fortune compared to the dollar or less they would have cost if a domestic part could have been used. Building ships in other countries off the lakes is definitely a double edge sword depending on if you look at the money being spend before or after delivery.

Its pretty hypocritical of Hike Metal Products seeing as they have built quite a few vessels for export, including for government buyers.

Most likely the same result as the last ferry to Pelee they bought. Designed in Europe has had poor performance & high operational cost. This same government bought a fleet of Italian helicopters for air ambulances not so long ago. Doctors do not have enougt cieling height to perform CPR. I believe the kickback allegations are still befor the courts.

The article is unclear on what exactly transpired. They lead off by saying the Ontario company is upset because they didn't get a chance to bid. Then they report government's rules on fair and open procurement. That statement suggests the company bid but didn't get special consideration in the bid evaluation process. Which is it ? Did they submit a bid or not ? This may have been a Request for Proposal bid process involving a two envelope evaluation process. Only the first envelope is opened to evaluate and score the bidder's technical requirements, bidder qualification, proposal for delivery, etc... Bids that reach a threshold score then have their price envelope opened and scored. The bidder with the highest overall score wins. That means the lowest price doesn't always win. A bid may be rejected without evaluation if it doesn't meet the requirements outlined in the RFP. During the period that the RFP is open for bids there may be Q&A sessions held with bidders and addenda to the RFP issued. It's a very transparent process. I work in government and this is a common method of procurement for large projects where you're not simple buying a quantity of available items. That situation is more suitable to a unit price tender process. I'm not speaking to the qualifications of the Ontario company. We first need to know if they actually submitted a bid. If they meet with the Ministry as they were invited to do so, they'll understand what happened. But first, did they submit a bid ?

Just read about this on the Boat Nerd News Channel. What a load of cr@p that an established boat builder only a few miles away didn't have a chance to bid. I hope this contract can somehow be cancelled and Canadian builders are given the opportunity to bid on this project.

- Don

Perhaps the Canada / Chile Free Trade Agreement from 1997 has some influence on the tender / bidding / contract awarding.

Read in the Sarnia paper today. New ferry for Pele Isle to be built in Chile.
What a kick in the stomach to Canadian shipbuilders. This is not a private company building this ship but the Ontario Goverment. What an insult to Ontario and Canadian voters. There goes three hundred man years of labour, badly needed in Canadian shipbuilding. Two our friends in the US make sure you keep your Jones act.