Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

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Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by DocF » December 22, 2015, 10:34 am

Modern builds, primarily cruise ships use a sprinkler system in the mechanical spaces. These produce micro-particles of water and that is neither hazardous to humans nor to machinery, including electrical gear. Consider that all modern cruise ships are diesel electric drive, so a system must not do additional damage to the electrical components.

Halon and CO2 systems have proven to be both hazardous and less efficient at fighting fires.

Merry Christmas, one and all.
Doc

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Guest » December 22, 2015, 7:21 am

Have any post fire pictures turned up, or it the damage limited to the ship's interior?

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Paul A » December 21, 2015, 11:36 pm

Guest II wrote:Regarding halon fire suppression - We had that type of system in our computer area where I worked. I was under the impression that it was not toxic and that it allowed anyone in the area to evacuate without problems.
Halon was phased out I beleave in the early 90's because it is an ozone depletion chemical. However if the atmospheric concentration becomes greater than 10% it causes central nervous system issues that make people inoperable.

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Guest » December 21, 2015, 10:14 pm

Sheriff Buford wrote:So the question becomes, is the Alpena going to be repaired? And what happens if the Alpena is not repaired in time for the 2016 season? The Alpena has been a workhorse in the cement trade. Which boat could replace her in 2016?

Yes, it will be repaired. It comes out of the graving dock in the very near future, along with the Badger.

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by shiphead » December 21, 2015, 8:19 pm

Halon is miltary only now.

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by geysir » December 21, 2015, 7:54 pm

Not sure halon systems are still used. Ships have CO2 systems. A CO2 system probably was not set up for the space that burned on the Alpena. Usually, there are separate systems for the engine room, emergency generator room, and paint locker. One ship I was on also had a system in the galley. You do need to close up the space and account for every person before flooding the space with CO2.

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Guest » December 21, 2015, 4:33 pm

Any system that relies on a form of inert gas like halon displacing the oxygen in the air to put a fire out is a danger to a human being.

A Russian submarine a decade or so ago for an example had a system accidentally discharge in a compartment on trials after a period in the shipyard and 30 or so civilian workers and sailors suffocated to death.

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Sheriff Buford » December 21, 2015, 1:24 pm

So the question becomes, is the Alpena going to be repaired? And what happens if the Alpena is not repaired in time for the 2016 season? The Alpena has been a workhorse in the cement trade. Which boat could replace her in 2016?

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Guest II » December 21, 2015, 11:08 am

Regarding halon fire suppression - We had that type of system in our computer area where I worked. I was under the impression that it was not toxic and that it allowed anyone in the area to evacuate without problems.

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by pcolachap » December 20, 2015, 6:25 pm

Hello Dan, Well, as we used to say in the Navy, Belay my last ... meaning ignore the previous statement. It was the James R. Barker that had a serious engine room fire in 1986. It happened in southern Lake Huron. The fire was extinguished with the fire suppression system, but the vessel was disabled. She was lashed alongside the Paul Tregurtha for a trip to the shipyard in Sturgeon Bay. At one time, there was a home video of the trip, but I haven't seen it for years. Sorry about the confusion, but it was a serious fire incident. Mike

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Dan » December 20, 2015, 7:40 am

Can anybody tell me about the fire on the Mesabi Miner? I didn't see anything about it in the gallery page.

Thanks,
Dan

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Paul A » December 20, 2015, 2:20 am

I think that is a halon suppression system garbear. Dangerous for personnel in the area. I think lahey touched on an issue that could effect an older electrical system. We at my plant have an issue that effects our electrical system in that all the fluorescent lights in the building causes a very high voltage in the return circuit (40+v) that is hard on digital systems and possibly hard on the ground itself causing overheat-fire danger.

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by garbear » December 19, 2015, 9:09 pm

I always sailed on deck, but wouldn't there have been a fire suppression system for the electrical room, or would the fire have been fought with CO2 or dry chemical extinguishers? I know on the Clarke we had an engine room CO2 system, but I don't know if that could be segregated by zone or area. I was always told if it was set off there was something like a 10-15 second window where the engine room watch had to evacuate before it discharged. Been too many years for me to remember how everything was set up to fight an engine room/electrical fire.

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by pcolachap » December 19, 2015, 8:47 pm

Hello Guest! What I was getting at was when you have a crew of about 25 people, you aren't going to having a fire make as much progress as you would on a "dead ship" in the shipyard with perhaps a watchman around somewhere. A vessel underweigh have people who monitor various areas, where problems could occur. The biggest difficulty with the Alpena fire was it was detecked early. When you have an engineer on watch and perhaps another crewman on duty, this type of fire wouldn't get the headway it got in the shipyard. This was a serious event in the drydock in Sturgeon Bay. Out in Lake Michigan, we might never have heard about it. Merry Christmas, Mike!

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Guest » December 19, 2015, 7:36 pm

pcolachap wrote:Hello Guest. This is the most likely outcome of a fire at sea aboard a vessel like the Alpena. The general alarm would sound & the fire party.. most of the crew.. would go to the site of the fire, not run away. It could take as little as 10 or 15 minutes to take care of the early detected fire to be put out and the ship returns to its usual routine. Ship-board fire fighting is something most mariners are trained in. I received mine while in the Navy. There have been bad fires like the Cartiercliffe Hall or the Mesabi Miner. But most fires, engine room or with belt fires in the cargo hold, are quickly taken care of by the ship's crew. No need to call the Coast Guard.
Regards, Mike
Thank you for the reply! I do know crews are trained to fight onboard fires, but reading the the news reports leaves me in doubt if the crew would have been able to do so successfully. It mentioned dozens of firefighters from numerous departments responded and had to rotate out in short order due to intense heat. Some had to go to the hospital for dehydration. And these are full time firefighters with complete gear. I am not doubting crew abilities...perhaps out in the lake the fire would have been detected sooner and temps wouldn't have been so hot. More or less just thinking out loud.

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Guest » December 19, 2015, 7:21 pm

It was during construction, but the Blough fire was another bad one.

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Jon Paul » December 19, 2015, 7:08 pm

Guest wrote:
If the fire did occur out there, it probably would've ended badly for the Alpena. Even if she didn't sink she'd probably be a writeoff. Thankfully that didn't happen. I don't know what the crew would do, perhaps deploy a life raft, or attempt to fight the fire?
Fighting and containing the fire would be one of the first priorities, then getting a head count to make sure all crewman were accounted for. A Mayday/PanPan to notify the CG and nearby shipping of GPS coordinates for help. In all likelihood, the fire would not spread beyond the afterend. There is really nothing in a lakers cargo hold or mid section to feed a fire except the paint and that wouldn't be enough fuel to lead the fire to the forward end.
The most extensive fire aboard a Great Lakes freighter in the later 20th Century (06/05/79) was the Cartiercliffe Hall and I don't believe they were ever in danger of sinking.

Sorry, this was my post, again for some reason it deletes my name from time to time?

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by Guest » December 19, 2015, 6:42 pm

If the fire did occur out there, it probably would've ended badly for the Alpena. Even if she didn't sink she'd probably be a writeoff. Thankfully that didn't happen. I don't know what the crew would do, perhaps deploy a life raft, or attempt to fight the fire?
Fighting and containing the fire would be one of the first priorities, then getting a head count to make sure all crewman were accounted for. A Mayday/PanPan to notify the CG and nearby shipping of GPS coordinates for help. In all likelihood, the fire would not spread beyond the afterend. There is really nothing in a lakers cargo hold or mid section to feed a fire except the paint and that wouldn't be enough fuel to lead the fire to the forward end.
The most extensive fire aboard a Great Lakes freighter in the later 20th Century (06/05/79) was the Cartiercliffe Hall and I don't believe they were ever in danger of sinking.

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by pcolachap » December 19, 2015, 6:30 pm

Hello Guest. This is the most likely outcome of a fire at sea aboard a vessel like the Alpena. The general alarm would sound & the fire party... most of the crew... would go to the site of the fire, not run away. It could take as little as 10 or 15 minutes to take care of the early detected fire to be put out and the ship returns to its usual routine. Ship-board fire fighting is something most mariners are trained in. I received mine while in the Navy. There have been bad fires like the Cartiercliffe Hall or the Mesabi Miner. But most fires, engine room or with belt fires in the cargo hold, are quickly taken care of by the ship's crew. No need to call the Coast Guard.
Regards, Mike

Re: Fire aboard Steamer Alpena

by lahey » December 19, 2015, 5:57 pm

guest wrote: Wow, if the cause was indeed due to a latent electrical problem onboard, it's a good thing it happened when and where it did. If that fire broke out in the middle of the lake who knows what would have happened. All crew gather at the front of the ship and wait for the coast guard? I'm guessing launching the lifeboats would have been almost impossible given the location of the fire. While there is never a good time for a fire...I guess it's better to have it in a repair facility with the fire dept close by!
If the fire did occur out there, it probably would've ended badly for the Alpena. Even if she didn't sink she'd probably be a writeoff. Thankfully that didn't happen. I don't know what the crew would do, perhaps deploy a life raft, or attempt to fight the fire?
Jon Paul wrote: If age related issues are a concern, I'm sure the Insurance/Underwriters will require a thorough inspection of the boat before they release funds to fix and or repair.

The "Supers" were always a special class of Laker to me. Classic lines and a good carrying capacity. I've always wondered why more didn't survive the 80's and weren't converted to self-unloaders.


It could also be a specific kind of electrical problem, not necessarily wiring, although they would be foolish not to inspect the rest of the wiring if it indeed turns out to be the case.

I've also heard people talk about how old fluorescent lighting systems have characteristics that can lead to them catching fire. Older models are not all thermally protected and even some that are can get stuck and fail to shutdown when they overheat. Some of these old boats may have these aging systems in them.

I am fond of the 40's, 50's and 60's lakers myself. The 80's was a cruel time for the industry, so many boats got the axe.

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