Boatnerd Discussion Forum

I never said that the cadets came from piney point what I said was that the trainees are from Piney Point and they get 1000$ a month

Agreed on the mindset part of this. For me, I experienced the days of 25+ crew on a ship, but I can honestly say my day is less busy now, even with many fewer people. Automation can be your best friend. The times of "good old days with everything manual" are going away very quickly (and they were not that good, considering all things). Yes, there will always be a need for deck crew. Yes, the fuel filters will still need hand cleaning. But one person can do both of those jobs. I do foresee a lock crew working much like the Panama or Suez Canals, coming on board for the transit, departing after.

The leave system will gradually change to an equal time rotation. It has gone this way in ocean trades for many countries, where work is less stressful than working the Great Lakes and Seaway. If unions did not accept changes, we would still have 40+ crew like the "good old days". The fact of it is the unions will amend working contracts and crew compliments as they have always done. The company answers to class society and flag state. They dictate how it will be done. That said, Liberia, which is the largest flag state in terms of tonnage registered, will issue new crew manning certificates at the request of a company. They will not allow dangerous levels of understaffing - they know how automated the ship is.

The lovely Wagenborg and Spliethoff ships visiting the Great Lakes routinely operate with 10 or less persons on board. Built and registered in Holland with Dutch crew, they are certainly not 3rd World operations.

The reduced crew model can also work on the great lakes if there is the will to do so with modern automated vessels.I worked in the European Short sea trade similar to some great lakes trades.We had 9 crew on a tanker.some of our runs were as short as 6 hours the longest was 24 hours between ports.loading times as short as 6 hours unloads up to 12 hours. Fatigue can be a problem and an adequate leave system must be initiated.We worked 10 weeks on 5 weeks off with pay.There were 2 Engineers in the engine room we worked an 8 hour shift which I did find long I would have preferred 6 and 6.Only difference I see is on deck as extra crew will be needed for canalling. The new Trillium ships are the way of the future and agreements with the unions involved re manning are in place.These meet the requirements of Transport Canada,STCW, ILO,IMO(International Maritime Org.)etc.Smaller crewing will and is happening now.

"The reduced crew model may work on a deep sea trade. But on the Lakes with the frequent discharges and continuous operation in confined waters I don't think its really appropriate."

Like I said.

If in reply to me, yes, I began my apprentice program and university studies at age 18. This was not unusual, and is still the norm for Europe. I have over 25 years at sea, in one way or another.

must have started quite young

Writing from work now, I am a Chief Engineer on board a post-Panamax size ship. My engine room crew is two. Me and a 2nd Engineer. Some deck/utility people to help when required (usually daily, small jobs here and there). Fully automated with a Kongsberg K-Chief system that costs more than many lake boats are worth. As for maintenance, capital repairs are kept up with via preventative maintenance. Most other things are cheaper to replace than repair (reality of prices for Korean machinery). We are manned during daytime working hours only (0600-1730), but the two of us are usually roaming all over the vessel, doing maintenance on various things. Bridge usually has control, and will call the duty engineer for any abnormal alarms. Yes, we can manage the workload quite well. It just requires teamwork and advance planning. Though, we do not maneuver as frequently as the lake boats.

With automation today, having someone in the Engine Room is not so useful, as the computers will react faster than any human can, and with less error.

I wish we had a few cadets! Not to help with manual labor, but because they would get a good education.

To those people who believe cadets are "stealing my job", you would not last very long with me. The only people who have their job "stolen" are those who don't work for it, or have no career progression plans. We are not union, but instead governed by other organizations, and follow STCW, IMO, ILO code strictly. Automation may have replaced some positions on here, but what positions were those? The lowest. Cuts are always made from the bottom up. But the guys at the top usually give up stuff too (they just don't advertise it as freely)...

And before you assume, I am aged in my 40s. Unfortunately I am not a young, youthful person all consumed with computers for my whole life. I spent many, many years on ships built in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. Like ships, I adapt to the times :)

The reduced crew model may work on a deep sea trade. But on the Lakes with the frequent discharges and continuous operation in confined waters I don't think its really appropriate.

Its not too bad on the deck side, but things have gotten out of hand with the reduced manning in the Engine Room. Particularly on the self-unloaders.

There is just as much, if not more machinery on these vessels then before. Just because you install a few touch screens shouldn't mean half the crew can be eliminated. It would be nice to hear some first hand accounts of how things are going on these ships.

Canadian Cadets do not come from"Piney Point" and there are strict Union Agreements in place that govern there work conditions

They claim that they operate with limited crew but what they are doing is putting three and four cadets on the ships also what they are calling trainees from Piney Point paying them 1000$ month and working them where and when they can so the company say that they only have 16-18 crew but actually still have 22+

They sail with three engineers and no the chief doesn't do a watch they do a weird shift some days 6 and 6 others not its very confusing it works that every other day they have 8 hours straight rest they have 1 ma who is day worker only all crew are gpw they can put u anywhere swing you over the side one day on the wheel the next or hosing the tunnel the next how the union lets them get away with this one can only guess

The Trillium ships are very automated thus allowing a reduced Engine Room crew to safely operate the vessels.The galley also operates with one cook only,not sure on the deck dept. European vessel operators have been operating ships safely for several years with what we call a reduced crew. 6-9 crew,but also have a day for day leave system.In Canada I believe the system for 6 and 6 is 42 days on and a period off.but Union agreements may say otherwise.The Chief Engineer on the CSL Welland does not stand a watch ,not sure about the others.

That's what I heard too. But I also heard that the C/E had to stand a watch. I wonder what type of leave system they have?

I did visit one bulk and one self unloader of the Trillium type.Appears from talking with the C/E of both they carry a Chief,2 watchkeeping engineers on 6 and 6. Unmanned on the open lake.1 oiler ,Do not know if an Electrician is carried.This information is not in any way official

I hear that CSL is trying to operate with even fewer people than Algoma. That's why I'm asking.

Amazing how the size of the crews have declined. When I started sailing on the Clarke in 1971 I believe the crew size was 35.

I see the new Algoma boats, under their description on this site, there is a sentence that says they could be operated with as few as possibly 18 sailors. But I don't know if that is at all comparable to the CSL new builds, or how that applies to engineroom manning...

Wow. I'm really surprised that nobody knows anything about this. Anyone work with CSL?

Does anyone know how many engine room crew are on the CSL Trillium class vessels? What kind of watches do they stand? What is the leave system? Does the Chief Engineer stand a watch or are they on day work?