Museum Ships

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Re: Museum Ships

by Denny » October 2, 2018, 2:54 pm

Not sure if I mentioned this in my earlier posts or not maybe I did at some point? However some of the main reasons I visited the museum at the Soo, the Valley Camp is because I wanted to in the first place as it’s been many years since I last visited it not since the mid-90s in fact as to the last time! Also, back at that time you didn’t have digital cameras like today so all my photos were with my 35mm camera thus many of them turned out blurry and not too well. My point is, with my digital camera I wanted to see the exhibits in the Valley Camp and get better photos of them which I did. Although it was 16 years since I last visited the bell of the Fitzgerald at Whitefish Point and the Point Iroquois Lighthouse, it was for the same reasons as the Valley Camp. Sorry to go off subject but just trying to make a point is all in a positive way I hope of why I visited the museums in the Soo area is all. At least now with digital I don’t have to go digging through my albums and boxes as I can view and look at them anytime I want to. That’s nice with digital photos!

Re: Museum Ships

by Pete in Holland MI » October 2, 2018, 9:21 am

20 years ago, I re-visited the Ford Museum to show my kids all the steam engines I saw when I was a kid. Was very suprised that most of the engines were gone, replaced with more modern exhibits.

Got talking to one of the curators. A museum is a business. There are bills & wages that need to be paid. If a museum has a static display, once you've seen it, what's the reason to come back and see it. They have had to pare down some of their larger exhibits, bring in new stuff, not only for the changing tastes of the customers with ticket money, but for the locals to get them to return.

Sad as this column is going, if the ship is the same ship one saw 5-10-20 years ago, what's the draw to come see it again ? Those museums that have found other alternative means of drawing visitors and raising funds are the ones that will survive. It takes a lot to keep a boat in good shape.

In time though, most all of these ships will eventually succumb to the ravages of time, will get too thin to hold back the water, and will have to be cut up.

Visit the ships we have now. They won't be here for ever, for both financial and decay reasons.

Pete

Re: Museum Ships

by Guest » October 1, 2018, 9:06 pm

Columbia is still raising money to be brought around to NY. But, they had a fresh shipyard period done and the boat is stabilized.

I heard ALOT of "We need to keep it in Detroit" while I was working on it when people found out. Everyday, 5-10 people with stories, etc.. It would have been great to see one local, with all of the history to the area.

.....But the boats have sat idle for over 20 YEARS, and no serious effort was ever really done until the last few years to stabilize, move and restore them.

Things just dont happen on their own with preservation. There is a serious amount of armchair quarter backs when it comes to this field, lots of "This needs to be saved!"...yet, when that happens, its literally pulling teeth to get help for the smallest of projects.

Not pointing fingers, just the reality of the situation in preservation, and its not limited to boats.

Re: Museum Ships

by Denny » September 30, 2018, 5:30 pm

Just curious is all, wasn’t the two former Boblo boats the Columbia and the Ste. Claire supposed to be turned into museums? I know there were groups that were trying to save them and YES I know about the fire that destroyed one of them unfortunately. However, didn’t both of them get moved and towed out of different places quite often? It’s just a shame that they couldn’t have turned one of them into a museum in Detroit since both were so rich in history and served the Boblo Island Park for many years. It’s too bad and a shame they couldn’t have turned one of the ships sort of like the Detroit Princess for cruises. Oh well at least there’s the wonderful memories most of us have cruising up and down the Detroit River on the Boblo boats as a kid as that is how I’ll always remember them. Just wish I would’ve done it more often and had more photos of them as well. Those were great memories and the good old days back then!

Re: Museum Ships

by Jason » September 30, 2018, 11:27 am

Guest wrote:Would it be too impractical to build exhibits and lecture/banquet halls inside the holds of museum ships? Maybe it would be too cold in the winter, but for 7-8 months it could add more interest and value to them as museums. I'm guessing if this was practical, we would see it being done.
The USS LST 393 museum ship in Muskegon does exactly this. The tank deck is full of exhibits, and the space can be rented out for events.

Granted, not every museum ship is practical for such things, but for those that are, it's a great way generate revenue for upkeep.

Re: Museum Ships

by MilwBob » September 29, 2018, 9:42 pm

Jared wrote:The Norisle is scheduled to be scuttled next year.

I am of the mind that one of the most unique things about the ships themselves are their superstructures. One doesn't have to save the entire ship but only the forward sections such as the Benson Ford and the Lewis Herriman. I was hoping the JB Ford would have at least gone this route.
The Norisle is a lesson on what not to do. It would have been all right if they had left it as a museum ship, but someone got the grandeous idea of refurbishing it into a operating cruise ship without the funding to complete the project. They got partially done and ran out of money, leaving them with a gutted boat that could not be used as an operating vessel nor allowed to revert to museum status, leaving it basically derelict.


The pilothouse idea has some merit, if you can get funding. There are several around the lakes, they don't need as much room and require less upkeep as a full vessel. While both the B. Ford & Harriman houses were done by private individuals, most of the rest seem to be existing relatively quietly. The 2 notable failures were the Shelter Bay pilothouse in Goderich (city just decided they didn't want it any more and trashed it) and the Fort Henry's pilothouse by the Welland's Lock 3 (scrapped after being heavily vandalized for the 2nd time.)

Re: Museum Ships

by Guest » September 29, 2018, 7:59 pm

Would it be too impractical to build exhibits and lecture/banquet halls inside the holds of museum ships? Maybe it would be too cold in the winter, but for 7-8 months it could add more interest and value to them as museums. I'm guessing if this was practical, we would see it being done.

Re: Museum Ships

by Jared » September 28, 2018, 10:29 am

The Norisle is scheduled to be scuttled next year.

I am of the mind that one of the most unique things about the ships themselves are their superstructures. One doesn't have to save the entire ship but only the forward sections such as the Benson Ford and the Lewis Herriman. I was hoping the JB Ford would have at least gone this route.

Re: Museum Ships

by MikeCDN » September 28, 2018, 12:20 am

The main issue with museum ships that they lose their novelty after a short period. One of the few success stories is the HMCS Haida that was in Toronto. Now she's in Hamilton, thank god.

It was saved intially from scrapping by a few veterans and enthusiasts put in as an attraction at a, now defunct, amusement park. After many years the ship fell into disrepair, people stopped visiting it and it had to be dry docked and moved to Hamilton where it is now an asset of the Canadian Government where it gets sufficiant funding. Now.

The Norgoma is now considered an eye sore in Sault Ste. Marie due to lack of funding and, therefore, fallen into disrepair. It was an attraction at first but people simply stopped visiting it.

The Norisle - basically the same story.

Another issue facing museum ships, unlike, other museums is the fact that they rarely change the exhibits because they're so specific in their missions. Land based museums change their themes all the time and, thus, get people to return. Keeping the money coming in.

Railway museums keep funds coming in by offering train rides and have the ability to be more interactive as they're on land, not water, and do not have the safety concerns of being on water.

Museum ships, for the most part, must remain static.

In terms of the HMCS Haida - feel free to correct me as I do not know the full story on her. I am, in fact, glad to her in better hands and getting the appreciation she truly deserves.

M.

Re: Museum Ships

by wlbblw » September 27, 2018, 7:14 pm

Buffalo’s 3 museum ship’s age is starting to catch up to them. Being warships, they spent a lot of time in saltwater. Their hulls have been in fresh water since the 70s but you can only kick the can down the road for so long. There are spots in their plating where the steel is so thin that it’s leaking bad. They have pumps going 24/7 & they’re having assesments done to start getting some repair estimates. They’re also trying to decide (based on price) just HOW to do it too. Options are, tow them to a dry dock, repair them in place by building a cofferdam & pumping it out, or constructing a portable dry shelter.

Re: Museum Ships

by Denny » September 27, 2018, 10:41 am

I agree also with most everything and everyone's comments here and in adding to some folks' comments. First the Valley Camp up at the Soo as I was there back in mid-August and toured her at the time. I did notice a list on her I believe it was port side and I didn't have the time or opportunity to tour her at deck level and cabins as I ran out of time. However, inside it hasn't changed any and the museum exhibits are still the same. As far as the exterior of the ship goes, I didn't think that she looked too bad considering that she is over 100 years old! Still now that the summer tourist season is over I don't suppose they get too much business like they do in the summer season. The Norgoma in Soo, Canada we all have seen and heard the news and stories on her as I've never been over to see her other than from the Lock Tours cruises. In Port Huron the Lightship is now closed except on weekends only and when it is opened all the time, I don't know how much business and tourists it attracts? The lightship museum I believe is either close to 100 or over 100 years old give or take. The Bramble museum also in Port Huron I'm not sure how much business it takes and gets in from the tourists either? I never ever see or hear about too many folks going aboard and touring her. Port Huron once had a tall ship even though it wasn't really a museum ship and then for some reason they lost the tall ship as it went somewhere else. Now all they are left with is the Huron Lightship and the Bramble. Both look like they could use a lot of exterior work on each. Basically I'm just trying to add to the thread here with my own comments is all here. I think what makes a difference as far as museum ships is where it is located at. Take places like the Soo and Duluth that are big on tourists and in Toledo and Cleveland, those port towns draw in the tourists at least in the summer months. Smaller towns such as for instance Port Huron and when you had the Shelter Bay pilothouse in Goderich, don't attract as much tourists probably due to the fact of them being smaller port cities. I hope I'm going somewhere with this? Again, just adding to this thread here with my comments.

Re: Museum Ships

by Guest » September 27, 2018, 7:01 am

As GuestfromEU wrote:

"Same story, repeated across the world day in and day out. I am sympathetic to these museum causes because they are living history, something which we all care about (on this website). But the general public does not."

I agree with everything in this statement. For example, I normally travel to Duluth in mid-September to avoid the heavy summer tourist season and found out rather quickly that the Irvin is normally shut down right after Labor Day to prepare for the haunted ship event in October. From what I have observed, there is a lot of visitor traffic in the Canal Park area during September and it seems like there is a higher proportion of people genuinely interested in the ships at that time of year in comparison to the summer. It seemed strange to me that you would shutter such a venue while there is still visitor traffic, but from what I have been told the haunted ship event is the Irvin's biggest money maker. I realize the Irvin may have a hard time existing without this event, but this illustrates how it must also be an entertainment complex rather than just a museum.

Re: Museum Ships

by MilwBob » September 26, 2018, 9:04 pm

GuestfromEU wrote:
Guest wrote:You can try the "Last steam!" "Last True Laker" etc. etc..but at the end of the day, outside of the small boatnerd community, it is meaningless.

The majority of your visitors are tourists, coming to see "the big ship!". Its a sad reality, but it has been proven time and time over with railroad museums. 95% of your visitors, could care less if its steam or diesel or what at not at the end of the day. They are there to see the train, the boat, etc.

And maritime preservation is nothing at all like railroads or anything land based. The costs are night and day. Water is an enemy, and shipyards are expensive. Every museum is fighting for the same money that is just not there.

I would love nothing more then to see the Ryerson saved. But the reality is it is unlikely. We have museums struggling already. This is why the SS United States is never going to go anywhere..

Just my opinion as a marine of 10+ years.
Well said, and bluntly truthful. If the Irvin was not in Duluth next summer, or if the Mather in Cleveland was sold for scrap, 98% of tourists would never notice. Next summer on their annual family holidays, they would barely register that "the big ship" is no more. Those few who do notice would say "what happened?" and, as usual, would get a reply of "they ran out of money" or "the city did not want them anymore". Then most will shrug their shoulders and forget about it.

Same story, repeated across the world day in and day out. I am sympathetic to these museum causes because they are living history, something which we all care about (on this website). But the general public does not. Does the Irvin have a "selfie station" where people can get their hot Instagram pic? This is the nonsense the curators must deal with. But, it's whatever pays the bills, no?.

The Cap San Diego museum ship in Hamburg, Germany comes to mind when I think of successful maritime museums. The ship was built in Hamburg mid-1950s, and operated for Hamburg Sud (also based in Hamburg). There is a strong local connection, and the city supports the museum. This mentality and appreciation for preserving history is, I think, more popular in Europe than in the USA. The ship is fully accessible, meaning only a few areas in the accommodations are restricted access, and of course the cargo holds and any confined spaces. The machinery spaces are totally accessible, and visitors have the ability to walk freely around (without a tour guide). People respect the property and do not take anything or otherwise deface the ship. The ship also sails periodically on day cruises in the harbor and out at sea.

Naturally, of course, this would not be feasible with the Great Lakes museum ships, but it is food for thought. I think the closest option available is the SS Badger, but even then, consider their decor and to which clientele they need to cater (hint: it is not maritime historians nor general history enthusiasts).

Spot on, both of you.

Re: Museum Ships

by MilwBob » September 26, 2018, 9:03 pm

Guest wrote:If Manitowoc had the funds and dock space, this would be a great place to see the Ryerson end up given she was the last freighter built at Manitowoc Shipbuilding. The problem would be whether the Wisconsin Maritime Museum could support the Cobia and the Ryerson.
I don't think WMM would be open to support a large museum ship such as the ELR. They've turned down much smaller ships in the past, beyond the Cobia I don't think that's a niche they are interested in.

Re: Museum Ships

by Guest » September 26, 2018, 7:58 am

If Manitowoc had the funds and dock space, this would be a great place to see the Ryerson end up given she was the last freighter built at Manitowoc Shipbuilding. The problem would be whether the Wisconsin Maritime Museum could support the Cobia and the Ryerson.

Re: Museum Ships

by GuestfromEU » September 26, 2018, 7:36 am

Guest wrote:You can try the "Last steam!" "Last True Laker" etc. etc..but at the end of the day, outside of the small boatnerd community, it is meaningless.

The majority of your visitors are tourists, coming to see "the big ship!". Its a sad reality, but it has been proven time and time over with railroad museums. 95% of your visitors, could care less if its steam or diesel or what at not at the end of the day. They are there to see the train, the boat, etc.

And maritime preservation is nothing at all like railroads or anything land based. The costs are night and day. Water is an enemy, and shipyards are expensive. Every museum is fighting for the same money that is just not there.

I would love nothing more then to see the Ryerson saved. But the reality is it is unlikely. We have museums struggling already. This is why the SS United States is never going to go anywhere..

Just my opinion as a marine of 10+ years.
Well said, and bluntly truthful. If the Irvin was not in Duluth next summer, or if the Mather in Cleveland was sold for scrap, 98% of tourists would never notice. Next summer on their annual family holidays, they would barely register that "the big ship" is no more. Those few who do notice would say "what happened?" and, as usual, would get a reply of "they ran out of money" or "the city did not want them anymore". Then most will shrug their shoulders and forget about it.

Same story, repeated across the world day in and day out. I am sympathetic to these museum causes because they are living history, something which we all care about (on this website). But the general public does not. Does the Irvin have a "selfie station" where people can get their hot Instagram pic? This is the nonsense the curators must deal with. But, it's whatever pays the bills, no?...

The Cap San Diego museum ship in Hamburg, Germany comes to mind when I think of successful maritime museums. The ship was built in Hamburg mid-1950s, and operated for Hamburg Sud (also based in Hamburg). There is a strong local connection, and the city supports the museum. This mentality and appreciation for preserving history is, I think, more popular in Europe than in the USA. The ship is fully accessible, meaning only a few areas in the accommodations are restricted access, and of course the cargo holds and any confined spaces. The machinery spaces are totally accessible, and visitors have the ability to walk freely around (without a tour guide). People respect the property and do not take anything or otherwise deface the ship. The ship also sails periodically on day cruises in the harbor and out at sea.

Naturally, of course, this would not be feasible with the Great Lakes museum ships, but it is food for thought. I think the closest option available is the SS Badger, but even then, consider their decor and to which clientele they need to cater (hint: it is not maritime historians nor general history enthusiasts).

Re: Museum Ships

by Guest » September 25, 2018, 7:04 pm

With the Valley Camp now over 100 years old (built in 1917), what kind of shape is she in? I'm assuming that it has been well maintained since becoming a museum, but it seems the the hull plating would continue to to corrode in the water along with other structural members.

Re: Museum Ships

by Guest » September 25, 2018, 6:44 pm

You can try the "Last steam!" "Last True Laker" etc. etc..but at the end of the day, outside of the small boatnerd community, it is meaningless.

The majority of your visitors are tourists, coming to see "the big ship!". Its a sad reality, but it has been proven time and time over with railroad museums. 95% of your visitors, could care less if its steam or diesel or what at not at the end of the day. They are there to see the train, the boat, etc.

And maritime preservation is nothing at all like railroads or anything land based. The costs are night and day. Water is an enemy, and shipyards are expensive. Every museum is fighting for the same money that is just not there.

I would love nothing more then to see the Ryerson saved. But the reality is it is unlikely. We have museums struggling already. This is why the SS United States is never going to go anywhere..

Just my opinion as a marine of 10+ years.

Re: Museum Ships

by Guesty » September 25, 2018, 3:01 pm

I believe that million dollar move and paint job are being funded by an environmental cleanup grant, not the museum's budget.

Re: Museum Ships

by Darryl » September 25, 2018, 2:52 pm

I'd like to tend to think the Ryerson would make a heck of a treat for the tourists. The ELR would have a draw being the last American steamer made to haul iron ore, it's unique appearance with all those stern window, some of the history associated with Inland Steel, it being the same size as the Fitzgerald, that big steam turbine and big pilothouse. I understand that the cost is a consideration. But I would think the Irwin has brought a lot of tourist dollars into the Twin Ports. Heck, they can afford to give it a million dollar paint job!

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