Boatnerd Discussion Forum

by **JFB** » December 26, 2018, 10:20 pm

Guest wrote:Is there any truth to the myth that the reason CN now owns the ore docks in Duluth and Two Harbors was to gain control of a section of railroad tracks connecting their Northern routes to much more appealing Southern access routes? I had heard that story when USSGLF was purchased by CN. If you want the small section of highly desirable tracks you have to buy the whole package, docks, ships, etc. TIA.

Your close, they had owned tracks from the border to Superior since the 1920's, buying the DM&IR Railroad gave them two tracks from Virginia, MN to Proctor, MN at the top of the Hill NW of Duluth. It also gave them ownership of the tracks from Proctor to Itasca on the SE side of Superior whereas before they were a tenant of these tracks. Blackstone who owned Transtar would only sell as a package deal.

by **captrmetz** » December 22, 2018, 12:58 pm

Very interesting story Lakercapt thank you for sharing. I was upbound on Lake Huron when my phone rang, the mate on watch said we are meeting the Incan Superior, I said are you sure ? He was, I could not believe it when we were abreast and it was to dark to take a picture of the old girl. I did not know she was on her way back to B.C. until I call Incan and found out. I sailed her for 7 years but after that long it got really boring, same old trip year after year.

by **Lakercapt** » December 21, 2018, 6:30 pm

Because of the delay waiting for the US pilots our run down the river was now mainly in the dark. I would have prefered it to have been daylight as being a strange boat and it would have been pleasant. I already told the pilots they were on board under sufferance and I would do the river. They were very understanding especially when they knew an experienced "Lakes" master was on board but their union or whoever were the ones that insisted they be on board. They also caused an extra problem as we were short of sleeping quarters and I was hot bunking so they had to do the same. All those shore guys who had made the call did not appreciate the position on board.
The passage down Lake Huron was uneventful as although the mates had not sailed on the lakes they were proficient navigators and could follow the recommended courses without a problem.
I again did the pilotage down the river to Detroit where they changed via the J.W.Westcott. The new pilots knew f the situation and did there best to keep a low profile.
Arriving at the call-in point for the Welland Canal we were instructed to tie up in Port Colborne for a Seaway inspection. This boat had transited upbound a long time ago so now they had to undergo an examination as to how we were to Tie up in the locks as there were no traditional roller leads or tension winches. With a combination of ingenuity and assistance from the canal pilot and the inspector and the crew, an acceptable solution for this one-way transit was approved.
I by this time had had enough of fighting the system and called Thunder Bay and suggested that my usefulness was over and I get off at Port Weller.
This I did wishing the crew bon voyage for their sailing to the wacky West.
I received a commemorative pen and pencil for my transmission trip.

by **Guest** » December 20, 2018, 9:27 am

Bob wrote:What was the reason that they quit using the Incan superior? The need for paper products is still there and I'm sure that they are not trucking as many loads that was hauled in railcars on that ship to make up the difference.

From an on-line blog:

"The end came because Canadian National Railway built a land-based railroad route which was a less-expensive method of transport. And a "new U.S. federal tax was to go into affect, applied to each rail car carried over the water between the two countries by vessels such as the Incan Superior. The tax rendered the vessel unprofitable to operate, and the entire program was quickly abandoned."

by **Bob** » December 20, 2018, 7:56 am

What was the reason that they quit using the Incan superior? The need for paper products is still there and I'm sure that they are not trucking as many loads that was hauled in railcars on that ship to make up the difference.

by **captrmetz** » December 19, 2018, 11:06 pm

This is the tanker fill with fresh water on arrival to Thunder Bay.

by **Lakercapt** » December 19, 2018, 7:38 pm

When the "Incan Superior" had finished its time on the railroad cars to Superior it was to be sent to the West coast again. I was asked to assist in the Lakes Seaway section as the crew from the West Coast were on board and they had no experience of this area. I was unfortunately as it transpired signed on as a supernumerary and not master and this was to cause a problem.
To make the voyage extra domestic freezers were bought and filled with supplies. For freshwater, as the ship's tanks did not have the capacity, a railroad tank car was loaded and welded to the deck and extra lashing to secure t. This was to be flushed out and filled when crossing Superior.
The weather forecast was not so good and I advised that full ballast tanks would be best. When they were pressed up a crack was discovered and water was pouring out.
( I have this information from my diaries and not relying on my memory)
Fabmar was called in and they welded it up but there was no record when it had happened.
I being an extra was now having to hot bunk it with another crew member as accommodation was full also suggested that additional radio equipment and navigation aids be fitted in Montreal before setting out deep sea. I had experience of this as I sailed deep sea with the Misener boats.
our transit across the lake was uneventful and down to the Soo locks when the sh*t hit the fan. W cleared the Mac lock and the US coastguard instructed us t anchor below the lock. The US pilots had lodged a complaint as the master was not exempt from pilotage. My arguments were to no avail and eventually two-second class pilots board and we were allowed to continue.
TO BE CONTINUED

by **captrmetz** » December 19, 2018, 6:19 pm

Incan had N.M.U. National Maritime Union.

by **Guest** » December 19, 2018, 2:44 pm

Capt Metz who crewed the Incan SIU or someone else?

by **captrmetz** » December 19, 2018, 11:31 am

All my time on the Incan Superior 7 years we went to anchor only one time. We were coming back from Superior and the weather called for storm warning out of the north, after hearing that the Captain said it would be to much sea to try to go around Angus Island and did not know what to do, I said Cap I know how to get inside and we could go to anchor behind Pie Island, he thought for a few minutes and said, " Are you sure you know the way" I said yes I have taken my Tug Carrie Lee inside many times to dive on wrecks. We went inside but the skipper was nervous all the time. We anchor in the bay at Pie Island and waited out the storm. But the Incan did go to anchor on the way to Superior and they tied up at the Lily Pond in the Keweenaw Waterway.

by **Guest** » December 19, 2018, 6:01 am

Darryl wrote:Did the Incan Superior ever get caught in rough weather and have to take refuge along the North Shore or have to turn back? BTW, you could hear her diesels from quite a ways away.

True. My dad and I would sit out on the deck and be able to hear her from our house just below Hawk Ridge in east Duluth. On a real quiet night you could hear most boats, but the Incan was almost always audible, no matter the time of day.

by **Darryl** » December 18, 2018, 1:29 pm

Did the Incan Superior ever get caught in rough weather and have to take refuge along the North Shore or have to turn back? BTW, you could hear her diesels from quite a ways away.

by **Jon Paul** » December 18, 2018, 11:41 am

captrmetz wrote:At one time the rumor was that he Incan Superior would run from Thunder Bay to Calumet MI. then unload the cars there. It was a shorter route to take.

Calumet, MI is miles inland from any navigable port. Lake Linden or Houghton/Hancock, both on the Portage Canal could have been options but I'm not sure why they would have chosen such an alternative that has much larger weather issues than Superior.

by **Guest** » December 18, 2018, 10:53 am

Did the Incan Superior ever come in through the Superior entrance? (e.g., ice, bridge maintenance etc.)

by **captrmetz** » December 18, 2018, 10:49 am

At one time the rumor was that he Incan Superior would run from Thunder Bay to Calumet MI. then unload the cars there. It was a shorter route to take.

by **Guest** » December 18, 2018, 10:46 am

Did the Incan Superior ever come in through the Superior entrance? (e.g., ice, bridge maintenance etc.)

by **New Guy Rick** » December 18, 2018, 10:33 am

[quote="Mr Link"]Thunder Bay apron:

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.3889731 ... a=!3m1!1e3

When I zoom out I can see a reddish hull / ship.
What ship is that?

by **Guest** » December 18, 2018, 9:15 am

Is there any truth to the myth that the reason CN now owns the ore docks in Duluth and Two Harbors was to gain control of a section of railroad tracks connecting their Northern routes to much more appealing Southern access routes? I had heard that story when USSGLF was purchased by CN. If you want the small section of highly desirable tracks you have to buy the whole package, docks, ships, etc. TIA.

by **Mr Link** » December 18, 2018, 12:16 am

Canadian Pacific was behind the development of the Incan Superior carferry service. There is no direct railroad route between Thunder Bay and Duluth/Superior. But more importantly Canadian Pacific's available routes at the time were way out of the way. A boxcar of newsprint would have had to head east to Sudbury or west to Winipeg before it could go south.

1974 map of the Canadian Pacific and its subsidiary Soo Line from Trains Magazine: http://trn.trains.com/~/media/files/pdf ... 07_map.pdf

If I recall correctly, the primary commodity marketed by the carferry service was newsprint from mills along the Canadian Pacific to printers in the midwest.

You are correct; an all rail route is generally much cheaper than a carferry route. But in this case the all rail route (on CP's own tracks) was not viable on its own.

http://zenithcity.com/archive/historic- ... -superior/

by **Guest** » December 17, 2018, 10:09 pm

Funny, I am currently reading “Sea Stories” now and had a question about the Incan Superior...

How was it more cost effective to ship rail cars, rather than just deliver them on rails?

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