Future of Thousand Footers

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Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Guest » April 12, 2019, 3:00 am

Guest wrote: I'm not aware of major improvements programs at ASC for their fleet,
on going steel renewal.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Guest » April 11, 2019, 11:26 pm

I don't know what will go first, hopefulyl years down the road.

I'm not aware of major improvements programs at ASC for their fleet, but it does seem safe to at least bet what will be the last casualty in the Interlake and GLF footer fleets, hopefully 30-40 years from now.

GLF repowered the Gott in recent years, which was the one they converted with conventional self-unloading equipment back 20 years ago or so to make her more versatile. And Interlake has of course recently repowered the Paul R. Tregurtha.

I don't have a clue what would go first, but I bet these two will be last out if major improvement programs were to end today, with the fleet of 1000' lake freighters just seeing routine maintenance each season from here on out.

The Cort is built like a tank and her EMD's are bulletproof, but her unloading arrangement and being leased rather than owned will work against her longevity I suspect.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Jon Paul » April 11, 2019, 9:59 pm

Guest wrote:
Jon Paul wrote:I would be very surprised to see any of the footers going for scrap in even the next 10 yrs unless there is a unseen collapse in the markets.
The 3 river class AmShip boats (Calumet/Manitowoc /Pierson) were considered 25 yr boats too and built rather cheap and flimsy but somehow keep going. Grand River/Lower Lakes really hasn't put any money into them and they carry a lot wider variety of cargoes. They will be the first boats to go for scrap.
There are a lot of customers that still benifit from the economics of a cargo delivered by the footers and the shipping companies will shift their vessels around to what makes the best use of them.

What source do you have that gives you the "knowledge" that no money gets put into the river class boats?
Ok, I'll bite, other than routine maintenance what capitol expenditures have been made on the 3 river class boats in the past 5 yrs to extend their service life?

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Guest » April 11, 2019, 7:07 pm

30 or 40 years? Sure, they can exist that long in a physical sense. The mills they feed? 30 or 40 years? No way. The old integrated mills are slowly on their way out due to the newer technology of steel making. Mini mills make high quality steel at aprox.75-80% of the cost of traditional steel making. The pollution fines levied by EPA alone are a significant production cost. This along with the continued drop in demand for high quality auto steel due to FORD gravitating to aluminum is putting a large strain on the remaining old time mills. How can I express this opinion? I work for one of the large integrated mills. Booming economy and we are still just limping along. The next economic downturn will claim more blast furnaces. The new plant in Toledo can’t save all the lost tonnage coming in the next 7-10 years.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by guest » April 11, 2019, 12:07 pm

The footers are finishing up massive capital expenditure programs for steel renewals in their cargo holds. The hulls are solid and do not rust at the rate that saltwater vessels do. Paint is an option when in a time crunch. They will be around for another 30 to 40 years I'd say. Nothing can move the volume that they do to the mills.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Guest » April 11, 2019, 11:47 am

I don't think the footers would be scrapped rite away more likely scenario they would just be put into long term layup unless a company was so in debt they need cash and scrapped one for money, I think the footers have a few tricks left in them, Iron ore out the seaway they could go to Port Colborne transfer to seawaymax ships, cargo transfers.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Guest » April 11, 2019, 11:29 am

Jon Paul wrote:I would be very surprised to see any of the footers going for scrap in even the next 10 yrs unless there is a unseen collapse in the markets.
The 3 river class AmShip boats (Calumet/Manitowoc /Pierson) were considered 25 yr boats too and built rather cheap and flimsy but somehow keep going. Grand River/Lower Lakes really hasn't put any money into them and they carry a lot wider variety of cargoes. They will be the first boats to go for scrap.
There are a lot of customers that still benifit from the economics of a cargo delivered by the footers and the shipping companies will shift their vessels around to what makes the best use of them.

What source do you have that gives you the "knowledge" that no money gets put into the river class boats?

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Denny » April 11, 2019, 11:01 am

I’m not one for making any guesses or predictions other than I can say as far as both the McCarthy and Indiana Harbor, they both badly need a major upgrade in paint when they’re dry docked again in Sturgeon Bay or if they ever lay up in Erie. Those two footers look like they haven’t been painted in years. Sorry to go off topic. Just my two cents worth.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Jon Paul » April 11, 2019, 10:21 am

I would be very surprised to see any of the footers going for scrap in even the next 10 yrs unless there is a unseen collapse in the markets.
The 3 river class AmShip boats (Calumet/Manitowoc /Pierson) were considered 25 yr boats too and built rather cheap and flimsy but somehow keep going. Grand River/Lower Lakes really hasn't put any money into them and they carry a lot wider variety of cargoes. They will be the first boats to go for scrap.
There are a lot of customers that still benifit from the economics of a cargo delivered by the footers and the shipping companies will shift their vessels around to what makes the best use of them.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Shipwatcher1 » April 11, 2019, 8:26 am

Jared wrote:What boat do you guys believe will be first to be scrapped? Cort is the oldest, and I got a grudge against the Walter J. McCarthy.
Pure speculation, I suspect it would be one of ASC's original footers, either the McCarthy or the Indiana Harbor

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Guest » April 11, 2019, 7:10 am

I always heard that the George A. Stinson (American Spirit) had some construction intricacies due to a labor dispute at American Ship Building during its construction. If I recall correctly there was some mention of piping, etc. that led to nowhere installed. I don't know how true that was.

When built, these ships were widely referred to as being "20 Year" boats in the sense they were built to have a 20 year lifespan. That may have been true given the optimistic predictions of the future iron ore trade made during the 70s which would have seen new construction continue past the early 80s. Obviously that never happened and since all of these thousand-footers are either nearing or have served for over 40 years, the 20 year prediction apparently had no basis in fact.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Jared » April 11, 2019, 6:09 am

What boat do you guys believe will be first to be scrapped? Cort is the oldest, and I got a grudge against the Walter J. McCarthy.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Denny » April 10, 2019, 9:02 pm

I think the Cort may be one as for your question of "Which of the footers is built like a tank?" Also and although not a 1,000-footer I think that I've read and heard where the Roger Blough was also built like a tank when it was first constructed. Someone else may have more knowledge and information on this than I do. Hope that this has helped some.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Guest » April 10, 2019, 8:44 pm

Which of the footers are built like a tank and which are not in the greatest of shape?

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Guest » April 10, 2019, 4:22 pm

It wouldn't accomplish anything, their 105' beam is too wide for the places the smaller boats are made to service.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by hausen » April 10, 2019, 3:07 pm

...and it's not just their length that affects thousand-footers' versatility. Their width (or beam) restricts the docks they can visit, the customers they can serve, and the range of their operation. Seems like it would be wildly infeasible to alter a 105'/32m-wide hull to make it narrow enough to fit down the Seaway and/or fit into the smaller docks and rivers on the Lakes.

The only way anyone would even think about shortening a thousand footer is if somewhere down the road the locks on the Seaway and Welland were rebuilt wider but not longer (roughly 750' x 106' is a very standard size among oceangoing bulk freighters) but that is not an idea that has ever gone very far.

As was mentioned above, the advantage thousand footers have is their economy of scale. They can carry a large amount of cargo with roughly the same size crew and similar fuel consumption pound-for-pound to a smaller ship.

Shortening a thousand footer would reduce its capacity and, as mentioned above, would not really increase its versatility. Look at the Roger Blough or the St. Clair, which are of similar dimensions to what a shortened thousand footer might look like. Both of these ships are too large to go down the Welland/Seaway or to serve most "river-class" lakes trades. At the same time both ships are too small to offer the same economy of scale as their thousand-foot cousins. The result? When demand softens, those two ships tend to enter layup before a lot of other larger and smaller lakers out there. The Blough was laid up from 1981 to 1986 despite being just a decade old, and rumors circulated at the time that she might never sail again. The St. Clair was in and out of layup during slower times in the early 1990s and again after the financial sector crashed the economy in 2008.

It's been mentioned that certain of the thousand-footers were very stoutly constructed. Some of those "built like a tank" thousand-footers, and/or the ones that have been well-maintained and upgraded by their owners are likely to serve long careers in the iron ore trades. It's also been mentioned that a few of the thousand footers have been allowed to get into fairly rough shape; it's possible that as coal tonnage declines we might see one or two thousand footers retired after around 50 or 60 years of service.

The current fleet of jumbo lakers was built partially due to somewhat unrealistic cargo projections that were overly optimistic about the early growth of the western coal trade or did not take into account the problems the steel industry was about to face during the 1980s. If lakes fleet owners had been more tempered in their forecast for western coal shipment demand, if they'd had a better inkling of what was about to happen between 1980 - 1986, and if one particular outside company hadn't attempted a program of somewhat speculative building of lakes supercarriers, we would probably have ended up with a fleet of eight or ten thousand-footers (instead of 13) and might even still have ships like the Arthur B. Homer, Johnstown, George M. Humphrey, and William Clay Ford (1) actively sailing today.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by navarch » April 10, 2019, 8:51 am

You'll never see a thousand footer shortened. The entire reason they exist is the economy of scale that their size provides.

Re: Future of Thousand Footers

by Chris M » April 10, 2019, 8:36 am

Wouldnt be cost-effective, they will most likely be replaced by smaller new builds in the future.

Future of Thousand Footers

by Bookworm » April 10, 2019, 7:41 am

Reading one comment on the Interlake New Build thread got me to wondering about the future of the thousand footers. Could they (economically) be shortened for continued service?

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