Boatnerd Discussion Forum

Another factor that the owners of the Badger have to consider is the future long term availability of licensed engineers (and the other engine room ratings) that are interested in and qualified to operate, maintain and repair reciprocating marine steam engines, boilers, and related steam powered auxiliary equipment. How large is the pool of people with the needed talents and skill sets for operating marine steam plants? There are only a handful of steam turbine propelled boats still on the Lakes, and the Badger is probably the only reciprocating plant left in commercial service. Does a newly graduated marine academy engineer have any knowledge, much less experience with steam technology. I think it would take year(s) for a newbie 3rd engineer to learn and become proficient with all the skills needed to keep a vintage steam plant operating in this day and age.

Just something else to ponder, regardless of what material is used to create an exothermic reaction to produce the energy to propel the boat.

Guest wrote: August 11, 2024, 7:57 am Bio-diesel isn’t a fossil fuel

Yes you’re correct in that bio diesel is technically not a fossil fuel but it does emit small amounts of hydrocarbons when burned, although no where near the amounts of petroleum based fuels or coal.it has much lower BTU content pound for pound than regular diesel.diesel fuel is intended for internal combustion rather than straight burning. It could be used if the badger was given a diesel repower but as a fuel source to fire the boilers? Not practical. Pour point is severely limited at colder temps and it’s very susceptible to accumulation of moisture in a short time frame. A blend of 20% bio diesel is used in farm n trucking but few applications of full bio work well.my brother farms and trucks. He’s tried several blends but always returns to pure diesel. I’m all for economical, practical and reliable alternative energy sources however we have limited such options with today’s technology. Internal combustion engines will continue using today’s fuels and powering cargo and people around the world for many, many years to come despite the green crowd wishing it otherwise. Someday hydrogen fuel cells will be conquered and power the world with clean energy. Until then? We burn just as much hydrocarbon fuels to create the “ green” energy used today. It’s basically a neutral exchange.

Bio-diesel isn’t a fossil fuel

Guest wrote: August 9, 2024, 6:35 pm Well certainly they could be converted to fuel oil but it’s a “ fossil “ fuel which at some point their waiver will expire for coal, oil etc for steam making. Interlake announced they will be seeking new so called “ green” methods of power. I say good luck with that!

Considering their short, fixed run I always thought some form of natural gas would work for her. You could convert her coal bunkers to gas storage tanks. With gas you could rip out the conveyor system, redler chain, the day hoppers for the boilers, stokers, and possibly the soot blowers and piping for them. While natural gas is a fossil fuel it's a heck of a lot cleaner than coal! You go into a natural gas boiler's firebox and tube cleaning is basically flicking a piece of dust off a tube that you happen to notice!!:) The crummy part is that the coal passers and probably the firemen would be out of jobs. if they go whole hog they could probably put in boilers that are half the size of the current ones yet have the same amount of heating surface!

Well certainly they could be converted to fuel oil but it’s a “ fossil “ fuel which at some point their waiver will expire for coal, oil etc for steam making. Interlake announced they will be seeking new so called “ green” methods of power. I say good luck with that!

y can't the boilers be oil fired ?

Well, I'm glad you're so passionate about this topic. Diesel will be going away. You can bet on that. It might not be tomorrow. But it will happen. Steam is indeed an anachronism, but the Badger is a special case. Knowing that Interlake is looking into green options for repowering her, my purpose in bringing up this subject was to try to dredge up creative ideas for a more modern way to generate steam for her historically important power plant. I've stated my ideas for better or for worse. I think the absolute worst idea is dieselizing her for the obvious reason that it negates her historic relevance and charm in being one of the last, if not THE LAST, large steam powered vessel on the lakes.

Diesel is the answer of the past????? Please explain why Interlake and other fleets spent millions of$ on new tier3 engines and added the scrubbers on other boats. If it’s the past why then are thousands of ships around the world being built with clean burn diesels? Why are the Canadians building such ships? Steam is the answer of the past. A battery bank large enough to power any steam making or run an electric propulsion unit would be absolutely huge in taking up space.i didn’t say it would sink the boat😂.what will be your fuel source to recharge those batteries and what is your turn around charge time? One would have to ask Mr barker how he envisions the payback time for such an expensive conversion considering the age of the badger and projected revenues to keep it running long enough to make $ sense. It is what it is… old technology kept running to turn a profit n keep the ship sailing. Interlake has deep pockets and resources but they succeeded by making sound$ decisions. Not by speculating on “ green” ideas not proven to work or be economical. I’d like to see how Mr barker would react to your stance that diesel is a past answer when that propulsion type powers his 3 year old 80+ million $ ship. My bet is they run her until cant get steam crew or the engine or boilers are not worth fixing and keeping. Market conditions will then dictate any power conversion or the scrap yard.

Diesel is the answer of the past. It's very unlikely her steam engines will give out in the foreseeable future. And I doubt the battery thing is out of the question whatsoever. Considering the loads she used to carry when she was a railroad ferry, I'm extremely skeptical of the claim that a bank of batteries large enough to power her would weigh the ship down so much that Interlake would have to lessen her auto carrying capacity. Charging capabilities keep advancing as seen in the fast charging stations now in use for some cars.

Guest wrote: August 6, 2024, 9:14 pm Fuel cell technology is not ready for safe commercial use but progress is being made.still years away.natural gas is a “ fossil “ fuel.batteries? The bank would be so huge they would lose payload space and how would you charge them? This idea that one coal burning vessel that only runs 5 mo a yr is destroying the planet is ridiculous. Her steam power plant won’t last forever. If Interlake wants to get rid of her coal powered engine put a clean diesel in her n call it good

Excellent point on the fact that the BADGER has such a short season. How can you economically justify a $15 to $20 million re-power. Is the Badger's operation profitable enough to pay the added costs? Especially when you have a competition from another other ferry line.

Fuel cell technology is not ready for safe commercial use but progress is being made.still years away.natural gas is a “ fossil “ fuel.batteries? The bank would be so huge they would lose payload space and how would you charge them? This idea that one coal burning vessel that only runs 5 mo a yr is destroying the planet is ridiculous. Her steam power plant won’t last forever. If Interlake wants to get rid of her coal powered engine put a clean diesel in her n call it good

Hydrogen fuel cells could produce electricity to heat the boilers, as could batteries. Natural gas would probably be an easier conversion. I doubt Interlake wants a nuclear powered vessel, but that's of course not an unheard of source of heat.

Wood pellets on the other hand would work. Just couldn't get them wet.

Has that ever been done on a ship though?

A bunch of mirrors and a solar collector can generate steam. You'd need to issue welding goggles to all the passengers and crew though as the reflection is pretty intense. Those trips on cloudy days and in the evening would be tough.

Guest wrote: August 3, 2024, 7:44 am Please explain what other ways besides fossil fuels that could be feasibly used to make steam in the badgers current old and outdated power plant. What “ carbon free” fuel source do you have in mind besides nuclear? I’d like to invest in that energy source.

Flettner Rotors maybe? Big Poufy sails perhaps?:)

Please explain what other ways besides fossil fuels that could be feasibly used to make steam in the badgers current old and outdated power plant. What “ carbon free” fuel source do you have in mind besides nuclear? I’d like to invest in that energy source.

Reactor. That would make steam and eliminate fossil fuels. Other than that no

I'm of the opinion that a power plant that is an Engineering Landmark and the ship an historical landmark should remain in use. That being said, there are many ways of making steam that don't involve burning fossil fuels. I hope Interlake will keep her machinery running on steam for another 72 years.