Boatnerd Discussion Forum

The letter from the president of the Coast Guard Tugs Association in her excellent letter detailing their difficulty in making CGC Apalachee a museum in Cleveland sums it up well. Forgot about that case of fruitless hard work too. They sure fixed her up nice, though. Hopefully they will get another chance.

http://www.76fsa.org/cgta/members_and_friends_of_thecoast.htm
I especially appreciate the quote which I believe originally came from Mother Teresa:

“We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful..."

The rest of the statement from Mother Teresa, while not in the CGTA letter is equally relevant:

"We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing."

I am not saying no to those who wish to try. I too share the same passion and am fearful for Bramble in Port Huron. Sometimes it's more important to follow your heart than your head and there is always hope that the right people will "get" what you're trying to do.

[quote="Guest"]It doesn't matter how passionate one is or the blood, sweat and tears someone is willing to personally sacrifice to protect, preserve and interpret history. If other people can't be equally motivated to feel at least some of that passion to provide funding, it's a losing cause.[/quote]

True, very true. My motto when it comes to these things has always been "nothing is impossible, only prohibitively expensive". On the other hand, you stand a better chance of catching the attention of those with deep pockets if you are passionate about what you are trying to do and willing to invest those blood, sweat, and tears to try to get the ball rolling, rather than sitting back and waiting for them to find that passion on their own. A very slim chance is always better than no chance at all.

The J.B. Ford is a ship that is, perhaps, easy to overlook. She has been out of sight, out of mind for many years. Conventional wisdom says she's too far gone (although recent on-board photos show otherwise). She doesn't have the sex appeal of the Ryerson. She doesn't quite have the age of the E.M. Ford, but as others have pointed out, she is far more original than the E.M. and she hasn't been sold with a "must scrap" clause like the E.M. (to a Canadian scrapper no less, so no chance of a donating the boat for a tax break even if he was willing to break the "must scrap" clause). What the J.B. Ford does have is a remarkably rich history, and researching it reminds me of a good detective novel that once you start reading it you just don't want to put it down. She has a way of drawing people in. That has certainly been true for me, and for Steve, and for many of the people we have spoken to about the project and who have joined the group. The more we learn about her, the more determined we are to see her saved.

Yes it's an uphill battle, especially in today's economy, but then you don't have a "they said it couldn't be done" project until somebody tells you it can't be done. I for one would rather fight the good fight and lose, than to give up on the old girl and resign myself to shaving with her just yet.

It doesn't matter how passionate one is or the blood, sweat and tears someone is willing to personally sacrifice to protect, preserve and interpret history. If other people can't be equally motivated to feel at least some of that passion to provide funding, it's a losing cause. In an ideal world, people would care about our past and accomplishments. The sad truth is that many people don't care and there are not enough people who do that can or will provide funding for that end. Either you need a lot of people who can at least give a little, or a few that can give a lot. There are always people who have a lot of money, but the reason they have that money is they don't spend it. Unfortunately, as with everything else in life, money is everything. Right now in this global economic climate, that's more true than ever before.

The J.B. Ford survived the 2 most deadliest storms in great lakes history and more than 2 of her sisters (in design wise) lie at the bottom. What other ships are left that have that type of history?

Chief makes some good points, the Meteor is the last of its kind and it is sad to see it displayed the way it is right now. In the fall of 2010 me and my dad toured the Meteor and apparently there were plans to dig her out? I may have misunderstood what our tour guide was saying.

As for saving the E.M. verses the J.B. it is a toss up in my opinion. Yes, the E.M. is six years older and yes it has the last engine of its kind, but the J.B. is much more original. I also believe the E.M. has been issued a "certificate of destruction" of some sorts as part of the deal between its sellers and PML.

If I were going to save one of the cement boats, I would be looking at the E.M. Ford. She appears to be in better condition and of more importance, she has the Quad Engine. There are only two of these left as far as I know, The Quads were pretty popular especially with fleets that routinely towed consort barges in the early 1900's. It is unfortunate that we can't save them all, but with money tight for everyone, the more we save, the less money there is to go around. Some places that have had museum ships have had to close them, and in some cases sell them. Of note is that of all the museum ships, no one has thought to save an early self unloader.

If we look ahead to our childern and Grand Children are they the ones that are going to want to start saving ships like the Cort as the first 1000 footer and the Presque Isle as the first successful tug/barge combination? Definately will have a space problem here.

What we as a group of Boatnerds need to do is getting funds to take care of and improve the museum ships we already have. The one that comes to mind is the Meteor. First thing is to dig her out and get her floating like a ship should instead of looking like a building. Meteor seems in my mind to be the most neglected as well as one of the most important as the last of a breed and definately needs to be preserved and taken care of.

Just my 2 cents worth from a 30 year plus sailor.

I totally understand everyones points made here about it being expensive and very difficult. That shouldnt be a reason to simply not try, and thats why I am moving ahead with my attempts to save it along with alot of people who want to see it saved too. I would much rather fail having given it my best, than to not have tried at all. Our efforts will continue until she has no hope at all of being saved. If we lose her, we will find another project to keep us going, we arent just about the JB Ford, it just happens to be our primary focus at the moment. All the best. -Steve

Why not send it to Alpena? There is space, since it is a small ship, it could be docked next to the NOAA museum. It would fit in perfectly with it being a cement boat and LaFarge is in the vicinity.

Who will pay for the up keep of this ship ? I know that the income from some of these old boats is very small. Like not enough to pay for the variable cost, electricity, clean the floor, paint every 5 years, a/c, let alone the major costs

Unfotunately, I dont think they could get it up the Kalamazoo River. No dock space on Belle Isle either.

Putting another ship with City of Milwaukee would impact that ship as well as the neighboring USCGC Acacia. Chicago was not overly hospitable to Acacia in the first place, hence her move to Manistee. Meanwhile, in Port Huron, lack of dock space and money are among the excuses being fronted to justify scrapping Bramble which is significantly smaller than the Ford. Lack of interest in Bramble is another. The question of who would run the ship in Port Huron is yet one more problem as the PH Museum has publicly stated it is short on funds even as it prepares to open the Fort Gratiot Light Station to visitors.

She would look good next to the City of Milwaukee or to replace the Keewatin. Chicago's Navy Pier would be an idea. Detroit's Dossin is another. Port Huron or Marquette maybe?

Where would the [i]Ford[/i] be kept if it was turned into a museum ship?
Duluth already has the [i]Irwin[/i]. I don't think the Duluth harbor could support two museum ships. That would be spreading the tourist dollar pretty thin.

It would be nice to have and endless supply of cash and save old boats. Unfortunately there is little room for sentiment when it comes to big things like boats. That's probably why so many people like model railroads and photography. Besides, there's money in scrap while a museum piece costs money. Steve, I understand your efforts and feelings about the Ford. Look at the Mather. We're lucky it's allowed to exist. Politics have already modified it's presence and appearance.

While i totally grasp Steve's efforts, I find myself thinking what is the point. I do not doubt the Ford's historic value or that if she were restored that she would make a worthy museum ship. My thoughts are on the current museum ships on the lakes. Many of them have endless money issues and are always fighting an uphill battle on that front. Adding another one to the pool will simply make it harder for these people.

Appreciate your efforts, Steve

The ship could probably be nominated for the National Register of Historic Places. One would have to check with the NR coordinator with the State Historic Preservation Office in Minnesota to get input on how they would want to carry that through or if they would even consider it. The nomination would have to be handled and approved at the state level first before going on to the national review board anyway. Depends on how significant she would be determined to be. By 1999, SS United States was in rough shape, but she was still listed as a NR resource, so there is always hope. The Big U is a very significant ship nationally, though. I'm not sure the Ford would be considered as a National Historic Landmark in her current condition.

Even if she were to be determined eligible for listing on the NR, the cement company, as owners, would reserve the right to block the nomination if it wanted to.

As far as listing, it is a common misconception that being on the National Register or listed as a NHL protects a historic resource. It does not. The label is largely honorific, helping to officially record and establish the pedigree and integrity of a historic resource. It helps with grants and with tourist brochures, but there is no protection offered to prevent destruction of a NR or NHL property, especially from its owner.

Sometimes the designation can help if coupled with other laws, usually local historic district ordinances as typically the only power to really protect resources is at the local level. One exception is Section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966.

The Act, as amended, is here: http://www.achp.gov/docs/nhpa%202008-final.pdf

Section 106 relates to federal expenditures and potential impact on historic properties. The NHPA established the NR and NHL programs, as well.

Sadly, destruction of NR or NHL properties happens more often than people realize. Google "Steamer Nobska" as an example. To read more on the programs visit http://www.nps.gov/nr or http://www.nps.gov/nhl on the Web.

Is there any way to place her on the national historic register or declare her a national landmark? I would hate to see her go to the torch.

[quote="mn brett"]Our Minnesota local news had a Story with Steve Haverty last night on the subject of saving the J B Ford.
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S2467331.shtml?cat=0[/quote]

Thanks for sending this along! Very interesting. I missed it, watched the ch 11 news.

Our Minnesota local news had a Story with Steve Haverty last night on the subject of saving the J B Ford.
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S2467331.shtml?cat=0