Boatnerd Discussion Forum

I don't things are that negative. Sure coal is under attack, but the coal producing and consuming states with significant assets are not gonna roll-over and play dead. This issue will be in litigation for years.
In April 2012 there was talk of Severstal Dearborn rebuilding their 'A' Blast Furnace.
As for the John Sherwin, she is an asset to Interlake Steamship and if she is rebuilt into a LNG diesel-powered forward-mounted self-unloader, she would be very competitive in the business in terms of operating cost. Add in the fact there is only one other ship of her near-size in the market with a forward-mounted boom. So try not to be so negative guys!

Speaking of ship (boat) traffic, when I was a lad my father would take us to Port Huron to take pictures of the boats which he would sell to the crew's. We would get to PH about 1100 and leave around 5:00 PM in that 6 to 7 hours we would see on the average 25-30 boats. I doubt that one would see 30 boats in 2 or 3 days now.

Ohio Bob - I could not agree more. The days of shipping coal are indeed numbered as are the days of shipping iron pellets which contain low amounts of iron. Just look at all the boats 'at the wall'.
This industry has seen it's 'Hay Day'. Back in the 50's we saw one boat every 8 minutes along the Saint Clare river. Now days we are lucky to see one boat an hour. Attracting young people to study this craft is becoming very difficult at best.

And to continue the thought of changes in the shipping industry, just look at coal. That is an industry with crosshairs on it.

A few thoughts about returning to the demand levels prior to 2007. There have been some significant developments that don't bode well for Great Lakes shipping. A good sized producer, RG Steel filed for bankruptcy in June of 2012. A new technology will soon be producing in volume iron nuggets, 95% iron & possibly shipped by rail. Still another company, I believe Magnitation will be shipping by rail discarded ore to be reprocessed at a mill in Indiana for AK Steel. Lastly, Essar Steel will complete in new pellet operation in NE Minnestota for shipments to the Soo mill.
I'm afraid this paints a bleak picture for US Great Lakes shipping. Let's hope that energy exploration and availability at low cost can change some of the present conditions. Also, let's hope that our congress people in Washington don't choose to alter the Jones Act. There are still great people and great opportunities on the Lakes. I hope things will take a turn for the better. Mike

The Ryerson is with us for the very reason we saw from 2006 to 2009. She was needed. Rumors were flying here and there for the 8 seasons the Ryerson was at the wall. I believe she still have a good chance to see action again. Also, dont forget. The Sherwin was in the process of being reactivated when the economy tanked. I guarantee when things pick up again, that project will go forward.

Michalex has some interesting points as does everyone else.The thought of LLT expanding is always a possibility but doubtful. They have the market they want and no one is going to build small ships to compete with them. What all of us are forgetting is that a ship in lay up, long or short term still costs money for docking fees, insurance, security, and maintenance. A company that has a ship they really don't want will only spend money on her for so long before ridding themselves of it. What I still don't understand is why the Sherwin and Ryerson haven't been scrapped yet. I m thinking of the millions of dollars that have been spent to keep these two ships around on the chance they may be needed some day. If business does turn around at some point in the future these companies could always lease a ship to fill a contract for the short term, or buy the Armco or Middletown which are already self unloaders for a lot less then the cost of re-powering and conversion of the Ryeron or Sherwin.

Chief brings up a lot of good points to keep in mind. I just want to chime in with the thought that maybe, just maybe, ASC is keeping the Armco, Burton, and Middletown to use for future seasons. Please stick with me for just a moment. ASC has some other boats smaller than the 1000 foot boats in their fleet, i.e. the Boland, Buffalo, Cornelius, Laud, White. These boats are of similar age and let's face it, aren't built as solid as the three steamers ASC has in lay up. These smaller boats are aging and maybe ASC plans to run them til they're done and begin bringing out the older steamers, most likely repowered, to replace the boats they send away. Yes there are a couple of these smaller diesel boats laid up, but keep in mind the self-unloading systems on the three steamers are newer than the smaller diesel boats are, which could be a reason to keep the steamers around to use years from now.

ashland69 wrote:Personally, I think, that if there's a reasonable business upturn, BoCo will convert her to diesel and bring her back out. However, in the long run, I'd be inclined to say she'll either be converted to a barge by LLT/GRN like the Reserve or end up sailing for Interlake as a potential replacement for the Herbert C. Jackson. In turn, I think the Jackson will end up sailing for LLT under the Canadian flag. Just my thots on the subject.

I cannot even see how Interlake would sell off the Jackson, especially to a competing firm. The Jackson is one of their most versatile boats, able to accommodate smaller harbors than many of their other vessels. And with Interlake's commitment to repowering vessels and keeping them in good shape, I suspect a refurbishment in the near future for the Jackson... not a scrapping or sale.

I don't see the Sherwin or Ryerson being at risk anytime soon. They're their insurance for the future. One actually started to be modernized not long ago and the other was out sailing and there are finished plans in their filing cabinets for a conversion of her.

And remember that back in 2008, Great Lakes fleets were adding capacity by restoring idle vessels like the Sherwin to service and every large ship that was available was active.

So I wouldn't be so quick to view today's demand levels as the new norm. The economic recovery has been essentially a very weak stabilization. We're not dropping but we're not really growing either. What little growth there has been has essentially just been keeping pace with factors like inflation. And even when there's genuine growth in one area, there seems to be a step backwards in another.

These assets are truly assets. The well is running dry and the new build picture is bleak (But shown to be not impossible by the Lakes Contender and the Great Lakes Trader). When the economic picture brightens, there very well may be a use for some of these vessels.

And Lower Lakes is a growing company. They've been largely staying put since the recession started which makes perfect sense to ride things out. But when the picture improves, I'm sure they would love to do the next logical thing and that's to strengthen their business in the Canadian bulker business and to go after contracts on both sides of the Lakes calling for large self-unloaders. They've about gone as far as they can in their current river business having captured most of it on both sides of the lakes.

So if some large self-unloaders were to become available, I wouldn't be so sure that Lower Lakes won't take a close look at them. It's about the only spot left for them to grow on the Great Lakes and obviously the most lucrative.

The Armco is a viable asset for whom ever gets her, but I don't see ASC ever sailing her as they have enough resources now to meet their cargo commitments. They let the American Republic go back to her owners and have the Boland in long term lay up. Would ASC sell her to a competing firm--Maybe but doubtful. Armco is too big for most of LLT's customer's docks and harbors. ASC only wanted Columbia's 1000 footers, but had to take the whole fleet and as of this season they are only sailing the 1000 footers. I am not saying that Armco will never sail again, but don't see it in the near future. One of my favorites-the Middletown is in the same position, but due to her age I see her being scrapped at some point. If scrap prices ever get really high I see the Middletown, Sherwin, and Ryerson headed that way. Another possibility is Armco being sold to a company that has a catastrophic loss of a vessel and needs a long or short term replacement such as a sinking (God Forbid) or a serious grounding that makes the subject vessel a total loss. I think we have seen about all the barges we are going to see with the exception of maybe one more. As for expansion of LLT's fleet, they appear to have all the resources they need and have the McKee Sons laid up this season. My Chrystal Ball is a little dusty and the batteries are low, but this is what I see. If scrap prices do go up significantly I see quite a few ships that are in long term lay up headed that way, as at some point the cost of keeping all these boats around for another decade just doesn't make sense.

Some of ASC's active fleet are on lease similar to the American Republic's situation. As we saw, they let the Republic go and replaced her with a vessel under their ownership (American Courage) that had been in lay-up for the past year or two. The same situation could end up happening with the Valor, Fortitude, and Victory. And to back up what was said earlier, the trend of converting old lakers to self-unloading barges has run its course.

Scrapped ships can't haul cargo. They're not about to scrap ships that were active just a short time ago that very well could be valuable again in a few years. The shipbuilding situation in this country and the condition of these vessels suggests that they're far more valuable as insurance for the future than for their scrap value today.

And there's absolutely no way that Lower Lakes would repower the Armco. The Cuyahoga, Michipicoten, and Saginaw and the fact that Lower Lakes has never barged a ship are proof positive of that. The barging trend has ended for a multitude of reasons and been replaced by repowering with the Reserve and the Buckeye being the last gasp of that dying trend. And if Lower Lakes had acquired them as steamships I guarantee that they'd of remained powered vessels.

All the more affluent operators like Lower Lakes are choosing to repower their vessels instead of barging them. And such companies never really embraced it to start with. Modern barge conversions have typically always been done by small companies operating in the fringes of this industry. Only Interlake's Pathfinder comes to mind as an exception from a major fleet. And clearly they too now favor repowering as four of their vessels are evidence of in the years since with at least three more planned for the next few years to be repowered.

And unless she's owned by a 3rd party and is just on lease to ASC, it's a moot point anyways since I don't see ASC selling her to them. The days of Lower Lakes not being taken as a serious competitor are long since past.

Personally, I think, that if there's a reasonable business upturn, BoCo will convert her to diesel and bring her back out. However, in the long run, I'd be inclined to say she'll either be converted to a barge by LLT/GRN like the Reserve or end up sailing for Interlake as a potential replacement for the Herbert C. Jackson. In turn, I think the Jackson will end up sailing for LLT under the Canadian flag. Just my thots on the subject.

I am glad there is somebody else besides for myself that still calls her the Armco.....she is my favorite ship. About her scrapping, I don't think that it is something that is going to happen. I think they would scrap the Edward Ryerson, Courtney Burton, or John Sherwin first. She has a good hull and a good build, and is a self-unloader. ASC would be more likely to sell her than scrap her.....I see a possible sale of the Armco to either USS or Interlake, and the Burton and Middletown to either Interlake or Lower Lakes Towing. It would not be cost effective to scrap them. There actually has been talk of ASC selling those three off with the Adam Cornelius.

Probably will stay in lay up and eventually scrapped, ASC won't sell the hulls to a competitor. Really sucks since the Armco and Burton are in such good shape. A lot nicer than GLF's steamers which hauled salt for a period of time.

What is likely to happen with Armco she has been laid up for a long time might she be scrapped at a certain point or continue to sit idle thanks?