Boatnerd Discussion Forum

i.e. manpower.

Labor is usually 80% of a vessels operating cost. Union or non makes no difference. Steamers take more manpower then a conventional diesel boat. ASC made a choice many years ago to be a "diesel" company. Lots of folks laughed at them. I don't think they're laughing now.

[quote="Brent"]There is one simple reason these vessels are not sailing--Steam Powered. If there are enough diesel vessels to fill the cargo requirements, why use the steamers? A said earlier the Canadian vessels are exposed to salt water and that definitely shortens the life of a ship by a decade or so.[/quote]

The one "simple" reason these vessels are not sailing is not because they are "Steam Powered." It all comes down to money.

You have to look at the operating cost of each individual vessel and then look at the amount of revenue each individual vessel can earn. A boat such as the Mariner or H Lee White can carry a lot more cargo than the Valor. Operating companies analize these costs right down to each nickle and dime.

[quote="Brent"]There are quite a few museum ships out there already. The more you have the less money there is to go around. If there is something unique about a vessel, I could see saving it, but the Valor and Halifax are pretty standard ships. Maybe someone needs to save a standard self unloader, as all the ones I can think of are straight deckers. The old Calumet would have been a good choice or maybe the Maumee when her time comes. We probably also need a cement boat, like maybe the St Mary's Challenger. I agree that the Quad from the Ford would be a great addition to any museum. There are only a couple left and one should be saved. I understand that Capt Jack Purvis has a collection of steam engines, so maybe he will save the Ford's engine.[/quote]

I agree, Breant. Even tho I am partial to the Valor ( I saw her launched in '53 and sailed on her in "55) we should have a self-unloader museum ship.

That's interesting about Purvis having a collection of steam engines. Maybe there is some hope afterall.

I think your thinking of the American Victory

On the contrary, I am all for the American Valor being saved. She had quite a bit more history behind her than the Halifax. She was launched as a tanker, attacked by the Japanese during World War II, and recieved several battle stars because of it. She escaped death with her collision with the Gulfoil and ended up making it to the lakes where she's been sailing for nearly a half century. Of course the Ford would make a wonderful museum ship, but if any "run-of-the-mill" "modern" lakers were to be saved, it should be the Valor.

There are quite a few museum ships out there already. The more you have the less money there is to go around. If there is something unique about a vessel, I could see saving it, but the Valor and Halifax are pretty standard ships. Maybe someone needs to save a standard self unloader, as all the ones I can think of are straight deckers. The old Calumet would have been a good choice or maybe the Maumee when her time comes. We probably also need a cement boat, like maybe the St Mary's Challenger. I agree that the Quad from the Ford would be a great addition to any museum. There are only a couple left and one should be saved. I understand that Capt Jack Purvis has a collection of steam engines, so maybe he will save the Ford's engine.

[quote="CosmicBlues"]Well it's always sad to see the old classic lakers with pilot houses forward go for scrap.

Shouldn't 1 or 2 be kept around and restored as museum ships?[/quote]

The costs of maintaining a museum ship are very high.

For a boat such as the Valor, somebody (or an organization)with deep pockets would have to come forth.

I wpuld like to see the quad from the E. M. Ford saved, but again somebody (or an organization) with deep pockets would be needed..

Salt and steel as we know don`t mix well and the Halifax spent enough time running in salt water during her career . Anyone who knows steam plants knows that keeping salt out of the condensate and feedwater is a number 1 priority - hence the salininty and dissolved solids daily testing of boiler water . Boiler tube headers , downcomer pipes , risers and water drums all sustain corrosion damage from very small amounts of salt getting into the nooks of crannies of the boiler welds and tube headers . Eventually running these boilers at 450 + psi is not safe anymore , less pressure means less economic shaft RPMs .
The depth of the harbour is tidal at peak times but it takes Seaway size ships at 26 + feet , salties maybe a tad more . And , the Bell Centre is a good 30 minute walk from old port , walking up to St. Antoine , then west . Or take the subway .

There is one simple reason these vessels are not sailing--Steam Powered. If there are enough diesel vessels to fill the cargo requirements, why use the steamers? A said earlier the Canadian vessels are exposed to salt water and that definitely shortens the life of a ship by a decade or so.

Well it's always sad to see the old classic lakers with pilot houses forward go for scrap.

Shouldn't 1 or 2 be kept around and restored as museum ships?

[quote="Guest"]The Valor was built in 1953 and the Halifax in 1962 any reason the Halifax is in worse shape?
[/quote]

Halifax has spent a considerable amount of time on saltwater and that wreaks havoc on a vessel's exterior shell plating and on the internal surfaces of her ballast tanks. That's why so many Canadian lakers (which often make trips out into the saltwater of the Gulf of St. Lawrence below Quebec City) have only lasted 30 - 45 years while their American counterparts (most of which rarely if ever leave freshwater) regularly serve for 60+ years.

Additionally there is the factor of Halifax's ownership. CSL's apparent philosophy regarding vessel maintenance and replacement has been discussed many times on these boards (and therefore is probably something more than just baseless speculation). CSL seems to run their vessels hard, do less ongoing shell, hold, and tank steel renewal work (which Algoma and ULS seem to focus on rather intensively to extend the lives of their vessels), and then after about 25 - 30 years when a vessel is too worn out to continue service they either scrap her (Saguenay, Tarantau, Manitoulin, and now Halifax) or give her a very major rebuild / hold replacement (McGiffin/Niagara, Griffith/Rt. Hon. Paul Martin, Desmarais/Laurentien, Tadoussac, Parisean/Assiniboine).

Earlier this year it was said here that the future of the Halifax was uncertain - this may have been because CSL was holding onto her until they knew whether the import tarrif on newbuilds would be lifted. If it had not been they might've considered a major rebuild/midbody replacement and repowering for the Halifax. Now that CSL is clear to build new vessels overseas the claims that the Halifax has sailed her last seem likely to be true.

The Valor was built in 1953 and the Halifax in 1962 any reason the Halifax is in worse shape?

Also how deep is the harbor where the Halifax and Valor are docked and how far is the Molson Centre from old Montreal port thanks?

I imagine the Valor is at the wall because there is no need for her. When cargos pick up enough, I suspect her and the other two steamers will sail again. She's not sailing because she's scrap, there just isn't the demand for cargo to necessitate having her in service.
[i]
"The former Frankcliffe Hall has put in pretty well what her tired out hull can endure , and the boilers on her have to be too weak to be retubed anymore ."[/i]

Why do they have to be too weak to be retubed anymore? There are older boilers still going strong on the Lakes, so I'm not sure if that's a safe assumption to make. Of course, she very well might have boiler issues, but I don't think it's a given just because of her age.

I wish they'd reengine her and repeat what they did with the Tadoussac. But I assume with the lifting of that import tax, there's not a prayer of that happening now.

Not to sure aboat the American Valor , she`s been on the wall for awhile now . If the Steel Mills pick up she may come back out next year . Regarding the Halifax , she`s done . The former Frankcliffe Hall has put in pretty well what her tired out hull can endure , and the boilers on her have to be too weak to be retubed anymore . She`s laid up in Old Port in Montreal . Here`s a couple of photos of her , then , and now .

Obviously it’s not economically feasible to run these ships. If the company could turn a profit having these ships on the lakes, that’s where they would be.

Any updates as to the fates of the American Valor and the Halifax who have been laid up for quite some time? Why is the Valor laid up over other boats? Any recent photos of the Halifax that can be posted thanks in advance.