Help identifing ship from 1952 Bourke-White photo?

[Guest]

According to Father Dowling's article, the after mast behind the smokestack on the Roberts was eventually moved in front of it, probably around the time she was rebuilt in 1944.

[Guest]

Gary had five 10-ton Huletts from 1907 to 1944,
two 17-ton Huletts from 1917-1959-61 and
four 20-ton Huletts built between 1944-59 until 1987.

Meaning that in the time period from 1917 to 1944 they had a total of seven Huletts, from 1945 to 1959 they had four to five Huletts, and four Huletts during the period 1961-1987.

See this page for more information: http://daveayers.com/Modeling/Steel_Huletts.htm

[garbear]

When did Gary get rid of the 5th hulett? The photo taken by Bourke-White shows a 5th. I started sailing in 1971 and they only had 4 at that time. Also, the photo shows the spar in front of the stack on the Roberts Jr.

[garbear]

In the 9 years I sailed for USS when you went into Conneaut the 5th hulett was rarely used. Probably I saw it used less than a handful of times in all the trips we made in there.

[Guest]

Conneaut had five Huletts, Gary had four Huletts while the Erie (NYPANO) on the old river in Cleveland had three.

According to an article I have on the Pittsburgh ships, written by Father Edward J. Dowling in 1957, the 1913 built Richard Trimble, Percival Roberts, Jr and James A. Farrell were the last ships to be built with their after mast behind the smokestack.

[JayJ]

JP thanks for info. Never new I could do that with a web page. Boy is control += going really speed up looking at old photos and data files. Tried it on the Gary photo,,, works great.

G you never miss a beat. My bad,, it took me a couple of hours to find the info. about the hatches and having an excellent, but short, memory I forgot the Roberts' picture was taken at the Gary dock rather than Erie dock. Before I forget again,, does anybody know how many total Huletts Gary (looks like 5) and Erie had? I'm trying to remember if there was a port we went to that had more than 5 or had Huletts on both sides of a slip.
Pulled out my old notebook with more saved favorites and looked up Bowling Green UV vessel index site. I found pictures of the Roberts 1955, the Trimble 1949, and the Farrell 1952 and they all have there rear masts forward of there stacks. The Farrell does have a doghouse without a hatch between it and the forward house, unlike the Irvin, and an extra guest deck like the Irvin. She appears to have 33 hatches, but I couldn't see the winch or chock for a winch on port side. The Roberts and Trimble appear to be the same with 34 hatches and the forward winch and chock in the same place.
Now I have to find who's data is wrong, because BGUV says that the conversion work was done in 1944, 2 years before the Roberts' Water/tube boiler was built 1946.

[Jon Paul]

On most computers that arent Mac based you can hold down the CTRL button, usually bottom left of keyboard and at the same time hit the +/= button along the top of the numeric line 2nd row from top.

[garbear]

What's the Erie dock photo?

[JayJ]

The dining room/kitchen doghouse on the Irvin and Miller (her sister) have a forward winch area to the rear of the doghouse. Together they are quite large and really stand out in any photos also showing the narrower telescoping hatches fore and aft of them. Don't know about the "sister boats" of the Roberts having a doghouse, but there is no doghouse in the Erie dock picture, just a forward winch in that spot and glare of the sun on the flat deck. Those that can enhance or blow-up the Erie picture will see a big old steam winch, one up forward and one aft on her deck.
What I did find out and can clear up is the number of hatches on Percival Roberts Jr. and Alva C. Dinkey had at birth: According to "Greens Marine Directory 1916"; The Dinkey, built in 1909, and the Roberts, built in 1913, were very similar boats. Both where 580'long, 58'wide, 32'draft, 3 holds, and identical triple expansion engines with Scotch boilers. The Dinkey had hatches and hold tonnage of 12H/4000T,12H/3400T,12/4100T=36 hatches/11,500 tons capacity when built. The Roberts had 13H/4100T,12H/3200T,10H/4400T=35 hatches/11,700 tons capacity when built. In later "Greens pubs" both boats, in mid-life, had there boilers replaced w/Water Tube Boilers. The Dinkey in 1943 (mfg. date) or after, changing her numbers to 12H4000T,12H/3300T,11H/4000T= 35 Hatches/11,300 tons (1H and 200T less). The Roberts in 1946 or after, changing her numbers to 11H/4200T,12H/3400T,11H/4100T=34 Hatches/11700 tons (1H less, but same T). It appears the shipyard learned over 3 years that by reconfiguring her holds, the Roberts wouldn't loose any shipping tonnage like the Dinkey did when converted. It also appears the Water Tube conversions were possibly heavier and required more space than the old Scotchs, because both boats lost a hatch. I wonder if these changes are true with all the other boats that had the same conversion. I'll bet the relocation of the rear masts from behind the stacks to in front of the stacks took place at the same time. Location of the rear mast might be, at a distance, a visual sign of a boiler type or change on old boats. Both boats being the same size, with the Roberts being able to carry more, I don't think she was designed for or ever had a doghouse or extra guest quarters. I think the reason for one less hatch at birth than the Dinkey, is the designers increased the narrow space between hatches by as little as 3.5 inches, 34H x 3.5"= 109", 1H = 9' or 108"+ 2 edges. I'm guessing the confusion about the number of hatches in later life, is nobody did a Arron Rogers (double check) after 1946 or just looked at her (like we have), but being lazy used builder's data.

Still need advice on how to enlarge, enhance, zoom-in or clean up old web pictures like the Roberts? Any help appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

[garbear]

I had a close look at the photo in Paintshop Pro, and what you see as a structure between the first and second hatched is actually reflection/shadows from the deck being wet. You can see the same lighting effect on the telescoping hatch cover leaves.

Do you also see deck winche? Because you definitely see the winches when you magnify the photo. If you look at the starboard rail opposite the space between 1 and 2 you can see the chocks the mooring cables go thru. The deck might be wet, but the winches are there.

[William Lafferty]

Here's an image from the Library of Congress of the Richard Trimble shot in 1913 -- you can see there's no deckhouse.

Aha. That settles it. It looked a lot like a house with water tanks atop to me in the photograph, but no. The ABS Record, which I'll assume as definitive, lists 35 hatches continually for the vessel, despite what the other sources I cited say.

[Guest]

I had a close look at the photo in Paintshop Pro, and what you see as a structure between the first and second hatched is actually reflection/shadows from the deck being wet. You can see the same lighting effect on the telescoping hatch cover leaves.

[garbear]

Doubt if another hatch was ever added. The Percival Roberts Jr. laid up for good in 1971.

[Guest]

I don't think that's a deckhouse in the image of the Roberts Jr. but rather the deck winches. The PSS fleet directory of 1968 (updated to 1971) lists those three vessels with 34 hatches. If another hatch was added later, it's likely the forward winches were moved and/or replaced.

Here's an image from the Library of Congress of the Richard Trimble shot in 1913 -- you can see there's no deckhouse. http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/det1994006102/pp/

[garbear]

Are we looking at the Bourke-White photo of the Roberts Jr., because I see no doghouse between hatches 1 and 2. Or am looking in the wrong spot? Because what you see in the Bourke-White photo are the mooring winches.

[William Lafferty]

That looks like a doghouse to me, similar to that of the Irvin. In Tin Stackers Al Miller writes that the final three Morgan class boats built in 1913, the Roberts, Richard Trimble, and James A. Farrell, were identical except the Farrell, the fleet's new flagship, had a guest galley and dining room situated between hatches 1 and 3, like the Irvin would have (as well as an extra forward deck and cabins for guests). I think all three vessels may have had that galley and dining room. The Trimble, too, is listed as 34 hatches until the 1960s when it is listed with 35. Removing the doghouse after the war probably made sense since I doubt guests, especially with newer and more modern vessels in the fleet, would have travelled much on those vessels.

[Guest]

There appears to be something in place of a hatch cover between the 1st and 2nd hatches behind the pilot house in the photo. Not sure what this is, doesn't look to be a structure like the William A Irvin has in that location, but not sure. Is is possible that whatever was here was later removed and another hatch added to account for the change from 34 to 35 hatches listed?

I think that is where the winches are. Probably placed farther aft to be on the straight part of the hull, as to not pull the stern out when the lines are tensioned.

And yes, the old maritime directories list the number of holds and the number of hatches per hold. 1952 Shipmaster's Directory showed 4 ships with a 11,12,11 hatch configuration. All Pittsburgh ships, probably all sisters.

Guess my question is-Where else would the mooring winches have been placed where the hull wasn't straight? The only other place they could have been placed would have been directly behind the cabins and the hull was straight there also.

[Guest]

There are winches between the 1st and 2nd hatches. The Percival Roberts, Jr and Richard Trimble originally had their mast behind the funnel but after rebuilding in 1944 it was placed in front of the funnel.

[guest7]

There appears to be something in place of a hatch cover between the 1st and 2nd hatches behind the pilot house in the photo. Not sure what this is, doesn't look to be a structure like the William A Irvin has in that location, but not sure. Is is possible that whatever was here was later removed and another hatch added to account for the change from 34 to 35 hatches listed?

I think that is where the winches are. Probably placed farther aft to be on the straight part of the hull, as to not pull the stern out when the lines are tensioned.

And yes, the old maritime directories list the number of holds and the number of hatches per hold. 1952 Shipmaster's Directory showed 4 ships with a 11,12,11 hatch configuration. All Pittsburgh ships, probably all sisters.

[garbear]

It's the mooring winches.