Question about Ore Carriers for a book I am writing

[Guest]

Falling into an empty hold would be a much bigger danger than falling into a hold full of grain. In most cases, the grain is filled up to the hatches, so the "fall" would be more like stepping over the hatch coaming onto a fairly solid surface.

[Ray]

Here is an idea I thought of many times while loading at chute docks or gravity docks in Marquette, Duluth, and Two Harbors. This could work at the shiploaders as well. Opening scene like on CSI Homicide. Start loading and when a chute opens and starts to drop it's 4 or 5 car pocket, a body shoots out and mate on deck notices it, has to stop loading. The homicide could have happened on the dock, or body was in an empty rail car before loaded with pellets up at the mine. Many twist with this versus the grain incident.

I had a shirttail relative who worked for a single wintery day on the Superior oredocks during World War 2. I remember him describing busting up frozen ore pockets with a metal pole while standing on the frozen pile. He was very much convinced that had he kept doing that job he would have had the one-way ride you described into the hold.

[Guest]

Here is an idea I thought of many times while loading at chute docks or gravity docks in Marquette, Duluth, and Two Harbors. This could work at the shiploaders as well. Opening scene like on CSI Homicide. Start loading and when a chute opens and starts to drop it's 4 or 5 car pocket, a body shoots out and mate on deck notices it, has to stop loading. The homicide could have happened on the dock, or body was in an empty rail car before loaded with pellets up at the mine. Many twist with this versus the grain incident.

[David D]

One thing I forgot to mention is that the story takes place in 1975, if that makes any difference. I thought the steering gear option was probably a bit of a stretch.

[greenshirt]

Thanks all. Another thought was to have my bad guy fall into the water between the ship and the pier, and have the wake from a passing ship create enough movement to squish him between the ship he fell off of, and the pier. But on the Valley Camp (my only Great Lakes ship museum visited so far), they showed wooden blocks put into the water between the ship and the pier to prevent just such an occurrence. Is that a common practice? One other thought was to have my bad guy and good guy fighting in the steering compartment at the stern, and the bad guy falls back towards the big steering gear. Is there any way the good guy can activate the rudder some how to pull the bad guy into the gears? And, I'm sorry if this seems morbid, and am certainly sorry if anyone on this board knew anybody who perished in some horrific accident like this, but I'm just trying to make the story as authentic and original as I can.

this was always a weird fear of mine when boarding the boats. Even if the boat doesn't surge (which it doesn't take much to do), you have to remember that it'd be hard to keep yourself afloat with a foot or two max of space, thus drowning. Some docks didn't have any wood pads or tires to stop the ship, and even the tires compressed pretty much to nothing.

[Guest]

One other thought was to have my bad guy and good guy fighting in the steering compartment at the stern, and the bad guy falls back towards the big steering gear. Is there any way the good guy can activate the rudder some how to pull the bad guy into the gears? And, I'm sorry if this seems morbid, and am certainly sorry if anyone on this board knew anybody who perished in some horrific accident like this, but I'm just trying to make the story as authentic and original as I can.

I'd think about your setting- if the ship is in lay up a lot of the equipment on board is going to be locked out or disassembled for inspection or repair. Accidents do happen but shipping companies, the Coast Guard, Insurance Providers, and OSHA have gone a long way in attempting to prevent them.

[Guest]

Thanks all. Another thought was to have my bad guy fall into the water between the ship and the pier, and have the wake from a passing ship create enough movement to squish him between the ship he fell off of, and the pier. But on the Valley Camp (my only Great Lakes ship museum visited so far), they showed wooden blocks put into the water between the ship and the pier to prevent just such an occurrence. Is that a common practice?

Those wood blocks wouldn't do much to save someone, they're more for keeping the ship from scraping against the dock. If the ship surged hard enough against them they would be crushed. You're talking about thousands of tons vs a piece of wood. One time I saw a tug spotting barges and the crew put two of those large rubber/plastic inflated fenders over the side and a salty passed by without checking down and the tug surged and cracked/popped both fenders.

[David D]

Thanks all. Another thought was to have my bad guy fall into the water between the ship and the pier, and have the wake from a passing ship create enough movement to squish him between the ship he fell off of, and the pier. But on the Valley Camp (my only Great Lakes ship museum visited so far), they showed wooden blocks put into the water between the ship and the pier to prevent just such an occurrence. Is that a common practice? One other thought was to have my bad guy and good guy fighting in the steering compartment at the stern, and the bad guy falls back towards the big steering gear. Is there any way the good guy can activate the rudder some how to pull the bad guy into the gears? And, I'm sorry if this seems morbid, and am certainly sorry if anyone on this board knew anybody who perished in some horrific accident like this, but I'm just trying to make the story as authentic and original as I can.

[Larry64]

Falling into an empty hold onto a steel deck would be just as or more dramatic than falling into/onto grain. Valley Camp, Irvin, and everything still in service are all proof of that..

I was going to say this. When you are in the hold of the Valley Camp looking around, it's amazing how big it is. That's an old "small" ship, I would love to see the hold in a footer.

[greenshirt]

Thanks, everyone, for your very helpful insights. I guess drowning in grain is not how my bad guy is going to die. But another question: when a ship is laid up for the season (or even longer - surplus tonnage) or just used for storage, is there still electricity available on the ship? Would lights, etc. still work?

I have never been on a ship in layup, including the Cornelius, Victory, or Valor, that did not have electricity.

Even the ship that was bankrupted and left in the Toledo drydock had power, despite the yardmaster saying they didn't. Found out the hard way while cutting wires.

[Guest]

Falling into an empty hold onto a steel deck would be just as or more dramatic than falling into/onto grain. Valley Camp, Irvin, and everything still in service are all proof of that....

[cabinboy2]

Electricity can be available. Long term lay-up with electric would be up to the owner. Winter lay-up almost always. How about flax seed? Could be slippery enough.

[MattJ]

Still can have a ship in layup. Quite often hatches are lifted off with a hatch crane to access cargo hold for shore gang repairs. Have them tussling around on deck and the good guy pushes the bad one over a hatch coming falling to the steel deck below. That would do a number on him.

[Darryl]

Yes to electricity in lots of situations. Depending on circumstances, it could very well have a shipkeeper living on there regularly, or a close by shipyard overseeing the lay-up. Years ago, I heard of people suffocating in grain dust. I think most of what you might come up with would not strain any sense of believability.

[David D]

Thanks, everyone, for your very helpful insights. I guess drowning in grain is not how my bad guy is going to die. But another question: when a ship is laid up for the season (or even longer - surplus tonnage) or just used for storage, is there still electricity available on the ship? Would lights, etc. still work?

[Guest]

Near the end of the 1971 movie The Burglars, Omar Sharif's character is smothered by grain as it is dumped into a silo. Perhaps the only plausible way this could happen on a great lakes carrier is if someone fell into the hold as the grain is being loaded by the elevator chutes?

[garbear]

Most "grains" corn, wheat, barely, beans, if dry and especially if they've been sitting in a hold dry settled for some time, falling on it isn't going to cause a quicksand effect. In fact it's almost be like hitting cement. Where the issue lies is if there's air pockets or voids in the material that could collapse (grain bridges, or open sumps or gates below the cargo). There's a scene in the movie "US Marshals" where Wesley Snipes falls into a hold being loaded with grain but simply lands on the top of the cargo, also in movie "The Dressmaker" a character dies when he jumps into a silo believing it is full of wheat when it is in fact full of sorghum.

That scene from "US Marshals" was filmed at the Continental(now Nidera) elevator in South Chicago.

[Guest]

Most "grains" corn, wheat, barely, beans, if dry and especially if they've been sitting in a hold dry settled for some time, falling on it isn't going to cause a quicksand effect. In fact it's almost be like hitting cement. Where the issue lies is if there's air pockets or voids in the material that could collapse (grain bridges, or open sumps or gates below the cargo). There's a scene in the movie "US Marshals" where Wesley Snipes falls into a hold being loaded with grain but simply lands on the top of the cargo, also in movie "The Dressmaker" a character dies when he jumps into a silo believing it is full of wheat when it is in fact full of sorghum.

[cabinboy2]

Hey David. The Museum ship WILLIAM G. MATHER in Cleveland could give you the visual you need. Usually a load of grain would fill the cargo hold, but a lay up load may not. The cargo holds of older ships(MATHER) that did not have walking tunnels, have a catwalk that extends the full length of the cargo holds, both sides, along the ship side above the sloped sides of the ballast tanks. But no catwalk transversely. These catwalks are accessed thru a small scuttle hatch located basically midship on the spar deck. One for each side. You can view the MATHER's catwalks on at least one YouTube video of a tour of the boat. They can be seen behind the flags that hang from the catwalk wirerope railing and adorn the inside of the cargo hold that is used as a reception area. Good luck

[Jerry at Duluth]

I don't know how you are going to do that. The longshoremen walk around on top of the grain of, of all kinds, to level off the cargo before closing the hatches. I cannot conceive of a scene where a person would drown in a cargo hold of grain The worst that I can think of would be a hold almost empty of grain on a self unloader and the person in the hold would be drawn into the unloading gear along with the last three or four feet of grain. His body would travel along the belt to the bucket elevator where it would be chopped up or to the belt lift where it would be crushed.