ASC Sold

Discussion board focusing on Great Lakes Shipping Question & Answer. From beginner to expert all posts are welcome.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote:I could see value in a Canadian fleet buying some footers and using them to run cargo from Lake Superior to somewhere on Lake Erie and then reloading the ore into seaway capable vessel. They could go from running 27k-28k tons of cargo all the way from Lake Superior to Quebec to running 70k tons of cargo for half the trip then transloading onto the seaway capable vessels from Lake Erie to Quebec.

Naturally Ore is the easiest cargo to see this happening with however, is there any reason this couldn’t occur with grain? Could the footers handle grain out of Thunder Bay, unload somewhere like Nanticoke, then reload on seaway vessels? Whether or not this could be done with grain I think this will absolutely happen with Ore.

I think this is the future of some of the thousand footers once the coal trade wraps up.
One of the downsides to transshipping material from one ship to another is that for every instance in which a material is handled there will be a certain risk of damaging the shipment. So if you have to handle the same cargo twice between two points the percentage of the cargo at risk for damage will be roughly double that than if the same amount of payload was carried aboard ships from the origin to the intended destination without the need for transfer. In addition, a shipping company would have to absorb the cost of the time lost by multiple loadings rather than the same amount of cargo being loaded once into ships capable of carrying the cargo through the Seaway. That is not the say that there would not be a significant cost savings on shipping an ore cargo aboard a 1000 foot vessel between Lake Superior and the western terminus of the Welland Canal compared to utilizing 730 foot vessels for this stretch. It would be interesting to see how the numbers would add up on this idea. It seems like the only way it could be viable is the construction of a transfer facility somewhere on the eastern end of Lake Ontario for this to work for the ore trade down the Seaway. Since there appears to be no such project in the works, I doubt the predictions of any 1000 footer going into Canadian registry any time soon. In my experience in manufacturing and logistics, any additional step added to a process increases the chance of it becoming inefficient.

This is not to say transshipments on the lakes have not had some success. Perhaps the best example was the construction of the pellet facility at Lorain, Ohio. In this case, however, this was to reap the benefits of bringing ore down the lakes aboard large vessels to be put aboard smaller ones for delivery to the steel mills located up the Cuyahoga River at nearby Cleveland, Ohio.

Wasn't there an issue several years back when Algoma Steel switched some of their inbound ore cargoes to rail to decrease the damage to the pellets?

As for the movement of grain aboard thousand footers, it seems that the grain terminals would require significant upgrades to handle such ships on a regular basis. That may be possible at the loading facilities at Thunder Bay but you once again run into the transshipment issue at the Welland Canal.

Just a few observations I have on this subject.
CDNMATE

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by CDNMATE »

Mr Link wrote:
Guest wrote:Hypotthetically, could a Canadian footer load at a US ore port and unload at a US port such as Ashtabula strictly for the purpose of a transload location onto Canadian Seaway size boats ? Would this be allowed under US laws ?
I think you would need a good law firm to give you an answer on that one. This exemption is in the law:

Provided further, That this section shall not apply to merchandise transported between points within the continental United States, including Alaska, over through routes heretofore or hereafter recognized by the Surface Transportation Board for which routes rate tariffs have been or shall hereafter be filed with the Board when such routes are in part over Canadian rail lines and their own or other connecting water facilities:

Since Canadian National hauls ore to both the docks at Duluth and Two Harbors, perhaps they could establish a shipping tariff from the Mesabi Range to Montreal that is 95% by water. Although I would think their would need to be some sort of rail haulage on the Canadian side of the border to meet this criteria. But what if it was 500 feet from dock face to stockpile?



The port of Thunder Bay has rail lines that services that port. Coal and Potash have been loaded there, so to circumvent the Jones Act, the Mesabi Range iron ore can be loaded onto rail then transported north to Thunder Bay, to be loaded onto a Canadian Ship. Canadian companies have had foreign flagged ships, running between ports to fill in the demand because cargo tonnage is surpassing domestic ship tonnage. To fill out the gaps the companies apply for waivers, for these foreign ships to run between Canadian ports.
You would think the same would apply to the Jones Act. If there is no American tonnage, they still need to move cargo regardless.
Denny

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Denny »

I thought that CSL hauled most of the ore to Nanticoke? I didn’t think Algoma carried much there at least I haven’t seen them do too many loads there lately. It does make sense to me to see some of the ASC footers go to CN/GLF as the Gott carries a few loads at times down to Nanticoke. Also, I’ve seen the ASC footers a few times carry loads to both Gary and Conneaut runs usually handled by GLF footers though. Sure would seem strange to see any ASC ships in different fleets and colors. Name changes maybe? I would think Indiana Harbor name and the Burns Harbor names would stay. American Spirit I would think the name would stay but the McCarthy might get renamed again and I’m sure the river class ships might? It will be interesting to see and watch how this all develops and plays itself out. Just my two cents only here.
Mr Link
Posts: 1286
Joined: December 6, 2014, 3:43 pm

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Mr Link »

Guest wrote:Hypotthetically, could a Canadian footer load at a US ore port and unload at a US port such as Ashtabula strictly for the purpose of a transload location onto Canadian Seaway size boats ? Would this be allowed under US laws ?
I think you would need a good law firm to give you an answer on that one. This exemption is in the law:

Provided further, That this section shall not apply to merchandise transported between points within the continental United States, including Alaska, over through routes heretofore or hereafter recognized by the Surface Transportation Board for which routes rate tariffs have been or shall hereafter be filed with the Board when such routes are in part over Canadian rail lines and their own or other connecting water facilities:

Since Canadian National hauls ore to both the docks at Duluth and Two Harbors, perhaps they could establish a shipping tariff from the Mesabi Range to Montreal that is 95% by water. Although I would think their would need to be some sort of rail haulage on the Canadian side of the border to meet this criteria. But what if it was 500 feet from dock face to stockpile?
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

Hypotthetically, could a Canadian footer load at a US ore port and unload at a US port such as Ashtabula strictly for the purpose of a transload location onto Canadian Seaway size boats ? Would this be allowed under US laws ?
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

A thousand footer in 2007 or 2008 loaded one cargo hold of grain for Milwaukee? I don't see that as a regular trade.

Thousand-footers can unload near Nanticoke in Long Point Bay into other lakers, and this has been done in the past, they are most efficient when they can unload their cargo to a dock, such as at Nanticoke, Algoma at the Soo or Ashtaubula, though in the later case they'd have to be US registered.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

Waterbirrrrd wrote:ArcelorMittal owns nothing. ASC owns all ASC boats flat out according to the federal registry, except St. Clair.

ASC is owned by GATX.
ashland69
Posts: 597
Joined: March 13, 2010, 4:34 pm

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by ashland69 »

I'll say one thing. When this settles out, the Lakes is in for quite a drastic change all round!

BTW, many thanks for the corrections in some of my comments and assumptions. I've been watching the Lakeboats since 1959 and sailed on the ASHLAND in 1969, but I've been living on the West Coast since the mid-70s and am generally out-of-touch to the tune of four decades!!
GuestfromEU
Posts: 359
Joined: December 7, 2014, 10:33 am

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by GuestfromEU »

tugboathunter wrote:I was under the impression that the St. Clair and McCarthy were owned by two ASC subsidiaries called Bell Steamship and Armstrong Steamship. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the vessels both being built to carry for DTE.
Most ships are owned by independent LLC's, and the mortgages held through that entity. This is also a liability limitation, so if said ship has an incident that causes a financial impairment to the ship, company, or other interests, only that ship (and their owner, a LLC, which owns only that one ship) can be held liable. Most likely any difference in ownership is due to bank notes on the ships.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

I could see value in a Canadian fleet buying some footers and using them to run cargo from Lake Superior to somewhere on Lake Erie and then reloading the ore into seaway capable vessel. They could go from running 27k-28k tons of cargo all the way from Lake Superior to Quebec to running 70k tons of cargo for half the trip then transloading onto the seaway capable vessels from Lake Erie to Quebec.

Naturally Ore is the easiest cargo to see this happening with however, is there any reason this couldn’t occur with grain? Could the footers handle grain out of Thunder Bay, unload somewhere like Nanticoke, then reload on seaway vessels? Whether or not this could be done with grain I think this will absolutely happen with Ore.

I think this is the future of some of the thousand footers once the coal trade wraps up.
tugboathunter

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by tugboathunter »

I was under the impression that the St. Clair and McCarthy were owned by two ASC subsidiaries called Bell Steamship and Armstrong Steamship. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the vessels both being built to carry for DTE.
Waterbirrrrd

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Waterbirrrrd »

ArcelorMittal owns nothing. ASC owns all ASC boats flat out according to the federal registry, except St. Clair.
tugboathunter

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by tugboathunter »

The Burns Harbor is owned by ASC, and chartered by Mittal. It can be easily sold although I am not sure what the terms of the charter are.

For what it is worth, the Callaway and Clarke are both due for steel work this winter (see the recent news report about DonJon) and I believe the Clarke is to be drydocked.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

If this sale of ASC comes to fruition, then it will be very complicated to say the least and like a deck of cards, who knows how it will fall on the table.

What complicates any sale to a Canadian company; are competition rules, anti-trust, union affiliations, national security (potentially), cabotage, etc.

A couple of Canadian lake fleets were interested in operating thousand-footers in the late-70s, and at one point Port Weller Drydocks was trying to get federal funding for the building of a new shipyard at Nanticoke where thousand-foot vessels would be assembled.

So there is some precedent for Canadian interest in thousand-footers. That said, I find it strange that ASC would want to sell Burns Harbour to Algoma - isn't she actually managed by ASC for Arcelor-Mittal, who took over the ex. Bethlehem Steel, es, ISG steel mill in Burns Harbor? A sale of Indiana Harbor and Walter J. McCarthy, Jr to Algoma would more sense.

If some of the other ships go to Key Lakes, then the "odd men out" would be Cason J. Calloway and Philip R. Clarke, since John G. Munson has recently been repowered and Arthur M. Anderson underwent a multi-million dollar refit this Spring.

Will be interesting to see where this goes...

A sale to CN with
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

diesel45 wrote:What I heard, from an observing Captain at ASC is Algoma wants the Burns Harbor, Indiana Harbor and the Courage. The rest Key Lakes want. Either way its all Canadian. Just Key Lakes manages the boats.
I have heard that Algoma is going for the Laud, Courage and a couple of footers, so thanks for the names; GLF will get the rest through CN and operate them as American.

I'm sure the St. Clair is finished.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

Andrew wrote:If Key Lakes gets in on this, it probably means bad news for the AAA's? Or is there enough in the limestone and aggregate business to keep them active?
There's enough business to keep them all active now.
GuestfromEU
Posts: 359
Joined: December 7, 2014, 10:33 am

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by GuestfromEU »

[quote="ashland69"Yes, like LLT/Grand River, Algoma could start up an American operation, but for some unexplainable reason, I just don't see it.[/quote]

Algoma Central has an office in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, established a year or two ago. Their international ships are managed from there, I believe, in some relation with CSL's international ships and the office near Boston. I do not know if the Florida operation satisfies the requirements for "American owned/operated", but that is just an accounting exercise to bring it up to terms.

As for MARAD potentially blocking any sale, I doubt this to be an insurmountable issue (if one at all). The American government currently is business and acquisition friendly, making favourable terms for a deal of this capacity. If the entire ASC fleet is divested, it would very likely be a piecemeal sale - X number of ships to company A, Y number to company B - possibly to appease regulators, but more likely an economic decision. In good times, there are just enough ships. In slack years, there are too many. Algoma has one more new delivery from Croatia remaining of their newbuilding programme, though the Transport, Enterprise, Leitch, and Dool are nearing the end of their tenure.

As witnessed with the acquisition of the Compass and Buffalo, while ASC's entire fleet is advanced in years, the hull steelwork is in better condition due to lack of salt water routing and salt cargoes. These ships (the current ASC fleet) will not sail another 50 years - changing emission and pollution regulations will see to their demise sooner than later - but it is feasible to see another 10-15 years of lifespan conservatively, possibly more.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

The US Maritime Admistration has to approve the sale of any US flag ships. I wonder if they would have any problem with such a sale of ASC? If it goes the way the talk is, 9 of the 13 footers will be Canadian owned, thru US subsidiarys. That seems it would have national security and antitrust issues.
garbear

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by garbear »

Andrew wrote:If Key Lakes gets in on this, it probably means bad news for the AAA's? Or is there enough in the limestone and aggregate business to keep them active?
Don't have the numbers, but I'd say they carry more limestone/aggregates than anything else.
garbear

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by garbear »

To trade between US ports they'd have to be flagged US. Unless they get the Nanticoke ore float. Otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense that Algoma would want them. Courage makes sense.
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