Canadian Miner
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Guest
Re: Canadian Miner
Northwesterly is off the land, Northerly all the way around to about southerly, easterly being the worse because of the long fetch cause ground swell in shallow water, I really don't under what the boundry of weather forecast got to do with it.
Re: Canadian Miner
Third try , as I kept getting timed out by the member log in , and when I log in I lose everything I wrote . Just too much to report , not enough time to write it all maybe .
The Cape Breton Post today reports that so far no success as of yesterday . The salvage master is there , but no plan set in place yet . Coast Guard officials say that continued attempts to get the ship off on the high tide will continue . And , the real big news is that the salvage crew will pump off some ballast , first mention of that since last week when she went aground . I checked the photos of her Seaway tow , and of her in Montreal prior to the tow . She definitely is lower when she left Montreal . Easy enough to do , just open the ballast sea cocks , the manifold inlet side , and the tank manifold valves . Let whetever you want run in by gravity , then shut everything down . Pumping out though will require a generator , and / or submersible pumps through the tank manholes .
As well mention was made of the 6.5 tons of fuel being in a ship designed safe place , as we know that is the tank up high . But the explanation of the fuel being needed to run a generator to provide navigation lights as required by law make no sense . When we did tows on the lakes and here on the east coast , all we had were portable lights , with batteries , and light sensitive switchgear . Winds are forcast 20 to 25 knots starting this evening .
The Cape Breton Post today reports that so far no success as of yesterday . The salvage master is there , but no plan set in place yet . Coast Guard officials say that continued attempts to get the ship off on the high tide will continue . And , the real big news is that the salvage crew will pump off some ballast , first mention of that since last week when she went aground . I checked the photos of her Seaway tow , and of her in Montreal prior to the tow . She definitely is lower when she left Montreal . Easy enough to do , just open the ballast sea cocks , the manifold inlet side , and the tank manifold valves . Let whetever you want run in by gravity , then shut everything down . Pumping out though will require a generator , and / or submersible pumps through the tank manholes .
As well mention was made of the 6.5 tons of fuel being in a ship designed safe place , as we know that is the tank up high . But the explanation of the fuel being needed to run a generator to provide navigation lights as required by law make no sense . When we did tows on the lakes and here on the east coast , all we had were portable lights , with batteries , and light sensitive switchgear . Winds are forcast 20 to 25 knots starting this evening .
Re: Canadian Miner
I`m surprised Captain Anderson even considered that northerly route , given the type of ship the Frankcliffe Hall was originally . Only her and the Saguenay were converted with the deepening of their moulded depths with that new plate , making them Nova Scotia class lakers . The Saguenay made many trips to Sydney for coal , but only had to stay close to the coast , taking Northumberland Strait directly across Cabot to Cape Breton . Same thing for the Algoport when we went to Little Narrows for gypsum . Did the Frankcliffe Hall ever go to Sydney for coal as well ?
That ground swell you talk about is brutal . I remember one trip to Liverpool on the Point Halifax to assist a salty docking there . On the way back we ran into that ground swell , it was impossible to do anything , but sit basically , stuff not secured was flying everywhere , as we rolled 40 to 40 both ways . I`ve never seen such a poor seaboat , but with that ocean swell , it`s like a pendulum , once you start moving , it`s just rock and roll time .
As far as the salvage attempt goes , if that swell gets going , it will be a lot harder on the tugs and towlines than anything else .
That ground swell you talk about is brutal . I remember one trip to Liverpool on the Point Halifax to assist a salty docking there . On the way back we ran into that ground swell , it was impossible to do anything , but sit basically , stuff not secured was flying everywhere , as we rolled 40 to 40 both ways . I`ve never seen such a poor seaboat , but with that ocean swell , it`s like a pendulum , once you start moving , it`s just rock and roll time .
As far as the salvage attempt goes , if that swell gets going , it will be a lot harder on the tugs and towlines than anything else .
Re: Canadian Miner
Scaterie and Cape North obviously inspire considerable respect among mariners. In 1981, after the Frankcliffe Hall (ii) b)Halifax was converted to a Nova Scotia-class self-unloader with her hull deepened by a plate, Capt. Axel Anderson took her to Halifax "outside" -- by way of Cape North/Scaterie. Traveling those waters he entered "Vessel laboring heavily" in his logbook remarks. When I was aboard for the trip from Thunder Bay to Halifax to Halifax in 1983 he brought us there it via the Canso Strait. Even then we encountered a big ground swell between Halifax and the strait, going and returning.
Re: Canadian Miner
Trouble with Scaterie Island , and the reason therefore so many ships have come to grief there is the location of that barren rock . Two different patterns of weather can affect the place , as shown by your forecast , using the Environment Canada one we are both using , for Cabot Strait . And the one I`ve been using , for Fourchu . Scaterie lies right on the boundry between the two forecast areas . Northwesterly winds will certainly make the situation worse .
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Ron Beaupre
Re: Canadian Miner
This is the Marine Weather forecast for Cabot Strait: Strong wind warning in effect.
Wind northwest 15 knots increasing to north 20 to 25 early Tuesday morning then diminishing to 15 Tuesday evening.
I think this spells trouble for the salvagers.
Wind northwest 15 knots increasing to north 20 to 25 early Tuesday morning then diminishing to 15 Tuesday evening.
I think this spells trouble for the salvagers.
Re: Canadian Miner
Her Fairbanks were heavily stripped for parts to be used on the Stephen B. Roman, no go on a start up.
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Mac Mackay
- Posts: 453
- Joined: November 2, 2010, 6:26 am
Re: Canadian Miner
The report I got was admittedly second (or third) hand. I am sure they didn't sound the tanks.
I suspect that someone did examine the holds.
I conclude therefore that someone assumed she could float on her tank tops since her holds were not tidal.
Hard to know what reports mean if you're not on scene youself.
As for Point Halifax - she can pull for a few hours without coughing too often, and she has more bollard pull than anything else around except the Irving tugs. She also has a towing winch.
The real problem is that the ship can't be lightered (there's nothing to lighter off except a bit of ballast water) and they'll have an awful time overcoming the ground effect with one tug, when she's broadside to the shore.
If she's hung up on any rocks at all, it will add to the grief. I don't think there's enough water around her to do a dive survey, so they really won't know if she is holed or hung up with out tank sounding or as you say by opening the manholes.
McKeil's salvage of Sault au Cochon last year was a lengthy process, and this might be too.
I suspect that someone did examine the holds.
I conclude therefore that someone assumed she could float on her tank tops since her holds were not tidal.
Hard to know what reports mean if you're not on scene youself.
As for Point Halifax - she can pull for a few hours without coughing too often, and she has more bollard pull than anything else around except the Irving tugs. She also has a towing winch.
The real problem is that the ship can't be lightered (there's nothing to lighter off except a bit of ballast water) and they'll have an awful time overcoming the ground effect with one tug, when she's broadside to the shore.
If she's hung up on any rocks at all, it will add to the grief. I don't think there's enough water around her to do a dive survey, so they really won't know if she is holed or hung up with out tank sounding or as you say by opening the manholes.
McKeil's salvage of Sault au Cochon last year was a lengthy process, and this might be too.
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Brent
Re: Canadian Miner
Any possibility of getting all or some of the main engines running? An additional 8000 HP would help, providing enough of the wheel is in the water to get a bite. Where are the nearest salvage tugs, Halifax?
Re: Canadian Miner
Latest Marine forecasts has good weather , with light 15 knot winds right up to Thursday . Tidal ranges are pretty well at the highest as well right up to the end of the week . Sure bodes well for the salvage attempt , whenever that may be .
Having been an Engineer on the Point Halifax , I know her capabilities . I also know her limits , and I hope that if and when other tugs do arrive , she has good company. Just doesn`t have good enough engines , Rustons are notorious for lack of performance , and hers were and probably still are , just as poor in that department .
Where did you hear that she was not holed ? I`m curious as to how they checked that out , as there are only 2 ways to check that , sound the tanks , which , was possible if they removed the welded flat bar from the sounding pipe tops . This could have been accomplished with a big pry bar, as the photo shows there is enough room to do it . The other way is to go into the side tunnels and open up the tank manhole covers , also easily done with a large rachet , socket and portable battery lighting .
So this just goes on , as we all speculate the next move .
Having been an Engineer on the Point Halifax , I know her capabilities . I also know her limits , and I hope that if and when other tugs do arrive , she has good company. Just doesn`t have good enough engines , Rustons are notorious for lack of performance , and hers were and probably still are , just as poor in that department .
Where did you hear that she was not holed ? I`m curious as to how they checked that out , as there are only 2 ways to check that , sound the tanks , which , was possible if they removed the welded flat bar from the sounding pipe tops . This could have been accomplished with a big pry bar, as the photo shows there is enough room to do it . The other way is to go into the side tunnels and open up the tank manhole covers , also easily done with a large rachet , socket and portable battery lighting .
So this just goes on , as we all speculate the next move .
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Mac Mackay
- Posts: 453
- Joined: November 2, 2010, 6:26 am
Re: Canadian Miner
I was waiting for some more positive news before adding to my previous blog entry. The press reported that ULS were still owners, but that has since been amended. She is owned by the scrappers now.
As to whether she is insured, that is a good question - they usually aren't.
The owner's salvage master boarded this morning, so we may hear something tomorrow.
I hear she is not holed, but they still have a huge ground effect to overcome, and I expect that the Hellas alone won't be able to haul her off.
As for speculation on whose tugs may be used - it would be just that-speculation. Atlantic Towing Ltd has the Point Halifax under charter from Svitzer, so it is a candidate. Most other tugs in the area are committted to harbour work, or offshore oil/gas.
As to whether she is insured, that is a good question - they usually aren't.
The owner's salvage master boarded this morning, so we may hear something tomorrow.
I hear she is not holed, but they still have a huge ground effect to overcome, and I expect that the Hellas alone won't be able to haul her off.
As for speculation on whose tugs may be used - it would be just that-speculation. Atlantic Towing Ltd has the Point Halifax under charter from Svitzer, so it is a candidate. Most other tugs in the area are committted to harbour work, or offshore oil/gas.
Re: Canadian Miner
The anchors are still in their pockets .
The real problem now is the time and weather window is closing fast . As of this early AM , no action yet , as I presume they are waiting for tug assistance . According to Mac MacKay`s Shipfax website , the Miner is still owned by ULS , or in this case is it Algoma ? Whatever the case may be , the plan to get her off successfully , keep her afloat if there is damage to her db tanks , and get her to a safe haven must be enacted asap , or like Brent said , she`ll end up being scrapped in situ . Scaterie is an island , accessible only by boat , and at mercy to the weather all the time . If the Miner does end up stuck there for good , the salvage will be a long , slow and costly one totally ruled by weather and any profits from the scrap value of the ship will be eaten up by the salvage costs , although I`m sure there is insurance on this tow . So the variables are increasing , and time is not .
The real problem now is the time and weather window is closing fast . As of this early AM , no action yet , as I presume they are waiting for tug assistance . According to Mac MacKay`s Shipfax website , the Miner is still owned by ULS , or in this case is it Algoma ? Whatever the case may be , the plan to get her off successfully , keep her afloat if there is damage to her db tanks , and get her to a safe haven must be enacted asap , or like Brent said , she`ll end up being scrapped in situ . Scaterie is an island , accessible only by boat , and at mercy to the weather all the time . If the Miner does end up stuck there for good , the salvage will be a long , slow and costly one totally ruled by weather and any profits from the scrap value of the ship will be eaten up by the salvage costs , although I`m sure there is insurance on this tow . So the variables are increasing , and time is not .
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Guest
canadian miner
does anyone know if they cut her anchors off or are they still with the ship thanks
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Brent
Re: Canadian Miner
The other option if she won't come off is to partially scrap her where she is to lightener her and drag the remains off. Don't need another Fayette Brown.
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Ron Beaupre
Re: Canadian Miner
There are two strong storms on the hurricane tracker and both are heading north up the Atlantic. If they are going to get the miner off, they had better do it soon.
Check this out:
http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/hurricane/track_e.html
Check this out:
http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/hurricane/track_e.html
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Guest
Re: Canadian Miner
if the wind comes Northerly or Northeast, she will be doomed I say, that direction has a long fetch in shallow water is not good, been around there a few times. As for the ground tackle, you really think it would work if that powerful tug snapped that tow wire which is about 2" in diameter, come on.
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Brent
Re: Canadian Miner
It seems to me from my limited experience of some 30 years that if 1 tug isn't enough maybe a couple more would be better along with some ground tackle. There is a formula that I don't remember that can be used to figure out the drag of a grounded vessel. It takes that draft of the vessel before grounding, the depth of the water she is grounded in and the weight of the vessel, and the number of square feet of vessel is aground.. These figures are used to figure out how much bollard pull is needed to move the vessel. Does anyone know if the hull has been breached? What ever happens, they can't leave her there, so someone had better be ready to write a check. Maybe things will get straight once the Salvage Association Rep gets there.
Re: Canadian Miner
That is all we need , experts and owners coming to assess the situation . The owner , being the Turkish scrap yard , obviously did not have anyone on board the Tug qualified enough to ` assess ` the situation . This ship , which , even though it is owned by foreign interests , still is in , or should I say partially in , Canadian waters . So I`m hoping that pretty soon we hear something from our own qualified people in the government , and Coast Guard , as to how this salvage can and will be attempted in the best , and most environmentally safe manner , with the weather window available .
Frankly , seeing how poorly already this has been handled ( it`s now Saturday , and the Miner has been there since 0200 Wednesday ) I think the old girl should have never left the lakes , and been sold to IMS or Purvis instead . At least that way this would not be happening now , and the recycled steel would be reused to our advantage . Just a predjudiced opinion of course , as I spent way too much time on her , so I`m a bit partial to how she is going out . This is , and I realize that , the first scrap tow to end up stuck on our shores in a very long time . But how it ended up there , and what may come next , has added a lot to the mix , so to speak .
Frankly , seeing how poorly already this has been handled ( it`s now Saturday , and the Miner has been there since 0200 Wednesday ) I think the old girl should have never left the lakes , and been sold to IMS or Purvis instead . At least that way this would not be happening now , and the recycled steel would be reused to our advantage . Just a predjudiced opinion of course , as I spent way too much time on her , so I`m a bit partial to how she is going out . This is , and I realize that , the first scrap tow to end up stuck on our shores in a very long time . But how it ended up there , and what may come next , has added a lot to the mix , so to speak .
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Bill
Re: Canadian Miner
CBC.CA is reporting Miner's owner and a salvage expert are flying in from Greece to assess the situation.