Canadian National palns sale f Great Lakes fleett.

[Guest]

This was my thought. You own the mines and the mills, if you can transport your own supplies, can you save money? If you can pick and choose Id take the Gott and Presque Isle, the Great Republic and Munson. I can haul ore and stone to most ports without special unloading equipment. maybe the Speer if I can convert it for a fair price.

[Guest]

The future for blast furnaces in the US/Canada is not good. USS closed Zug Island's, next up might be Pittsburgh. Once a furnace needs a major rebuild, I think it's shut down. Electric Arc Furnaces are how USS plans on making steel in the future. And those plants are being built down south.

IMO USS keeps one integrated mill - Gary. If just to make pig iron for their EAFs

[Guest]

Not a bad thought. On CNBC today, they said Cliffs has lots of money. The idea's been floated on here that maybe they're interested in having a bigger, dedicated fleet on the Lakes. USS's got to be at least be thinking along those lines, too. If a footer stayed at the Wall in the Spring, that would not indicate a rush to be scrapped. Boats stay laid-up for years.

This whole thing in Ukraine according to what I've read recently will affect other commodities besides oil. Steel is shipped out of Eastern Bloc countries to Western Europe. That's changed for the time being. Consequently, this report went on to say, less steel will cross the Atlantic Ocean. Lot of uncontrollable factors in this particular global market.

I don't know how the idea of Cliffs jumping back into the lake shipping business is getting a life of its own on these boards other than a few posts about the possibility. Is it possible? Yes, anything is. Is it likely? Probably not. Cliffs will most likely continue to outsource this part of their operation to a third party as it does today. That way they are free from all of the problems connected with operating a fleet of ships not to mention the labor issues. Vertical integration in the steel / raw material industries has been tried before when it comes to fleet ownership and no such fleet remains on the lakes. Even after the dust settles on current events in Europe, I don't believe the business climate will change to the point that Cliffs will change its business model concerning the movement of its raw materials. It would seem that one of the primary reasons steel companies owned their own fleets at one time was not only to ensure a steady supply of raw materials to their steelmaking operations but also to have a bargaining chip in negotiating ore hauling contracts. Other than United States Steel, I doubt that there has ever been a steelmaker that had a fleet large enough to cover all of its needs at least since the end of the Second World War. The only real possibility I can see in which Cliffs would reenter the shipping business would be if the number of independent fleets dropped to a point in which there was no more direct competition to control freight rates. The US Great Lakes shipping industry may in fact be reaching this point even as I type this. I could very well be wrong but I expect Cliffs to continue outsourcing its raw material hauling needs. The continuing decline in cargoes and available vessels may one day change the entire scope of US-flagged shipping on the lakes. It seems that the next few years will be very telling as to what the future holds for shipping on the Great Lakes. One thing that seems sure, however, is that the size of the fleet will continue to decline.

[Darryl]

Not a bad thought. On CNBC today, they said Cliffs has lots of money. The idea's been floated on here that maybe they're interested in having a bigger, dedicated fleet on the Lakes. USS's got to be at least be thinking along those lines, too. If a footer stayed at the Wall in the Spring, that would not indicate a rush to be scrapped. Boats stay laid-up for years.

This whole thing in Ukraine according to what I've read recently will affect other commodities besides oil. Steel is shipped out of Eastern Bloc countries to Western Europe. That's changed for the time being. Consequently, this report went on to say, less steel will cross the Atlantic Ocean. Lot of uncontrollable factors in this particular global market.

[ashland69]

Just a thot. What would stop USS from putting a ship management team together and buying back the entire lot? After all, that would ensure them a guaranteed supply of ore ,etc into their docks around the Lakes. Again, just a thot.

[Guest]

A footer could not deliver to Dofasco in Hamilton, but they do currently deliver to Stelco in Nanticoke and there's no reason a Canadian-flag ship couldn't do that same route. As far as Algoma Steel in the Soo, the Indiana Harbor made a delivery there last year and I believe carried only a partial load due to draft restrictions at that mill.

Plus with two electric arc furnaces expected to come online in 2024, Algoma Steel will be phasing out iron ore and coal receipts starting then (unless they decide to build some sort of direct reduced iron plant onsite).

That's the first I have heard about this happening but I have been somewhat out of touch with the hobby for some time. This will definitely hurt the Lower Lakes fleet and the ore shipments on Lake Superior and particularly Marquette. Is this one of the reasons that there was a press release late last fall in which Oaktree Capital and American Industrial Partners were looking at the option of selling off Rand Logistics?

[Guest]

Have the Canadians ever bought a new US built boat? Where would they have built it in Canada?

US footers had a big piece of the Ontario coal trade for years. So the economics were compelling.

It would still make sense to use them for shuttles to docks that can take them for transhipment. One used footer would replace 2 and half Seaway boats.

Until now, no footers were surplus. It's really the first time they would be available at reasonable prices.

[Mr Link]

A footer could not deliver to Dofasco in Hamilton, but they do currently deliver to Stelco in Nanticoke and there's no reason a Canadian-flag ship couldn't do that same route. As far as Algoma Steel in the Soo, the Indiana Harbor made a delivery there last year and I believe carried only a partial load due to draft restrictions at that mill.

Plus with two electric arc furnaces expected to come online in 2024, Algoma Steel will be phasing out iron ore and coal receipts starting then (unless they decide to build some sort of direct reduced iron plant onsite).

[Jared]

Regarding CSL and Algoma {CN dosen't count} If they wanted a footer in the last 40 years they would have built one.

Agree with your answer 100%.

[CSLFAN]

Regarding CSL and Algoma {CN dosen't count} If they wanted a footer in the last 40 years they would have built one.

[CSLFAN]

How do you get a footer to Hamilton ???

[MilwBob]

A Canadian company could use footers to replace the boats providing ore to the Canadian mills at the Essar SOO and Dofasco Hamilton. Plus could use them for transshipments.

How are they going to get a footer to Hamilton?

[tugboathunter]

A footer could not deliver to Dofasco in Hamilton, but they do currently deliver to Stelco in Nanticoke and there's no reason a Canadian-flag ship couldn't do that same route. As far as Algoma Steel in the Soo, the Indiana Harbor made a delivery there last year and I believe carried only a partial load due to draft restrictions at that mill.

[Guest]

Thousand-footers are far too large to go through the Welland Canal to Dofasco in Hamilton. They are a good fit for Stelco's Nanticoke steelmill.

[Guest]

A Canadian company could use footers to replace the boats providing ore to the Canadian mills at the Essar SOO and Dofasco Hamilton. Plus could use them for transshipments.

[Guest]

You are correct as the Great Republic at 635 X 68 would be the only vessel from their fleet to transit the Welland Canal and the Seaway Locks. The rest of their fleet is much too long and wide for the Welland along with the Seaway Locks.

Anderson, Callaway, and Clarke are too long, but they aren't too wide.

[Guest]

Wonder if a Canadian company would buy the fleet to get their hands on some well maintained thousand footers and smaller boats?

With inflation running high, the cost of new builds in China must be going up. GLF could be a bargain.

If I understand correctly, only one of the ships can go through the Welland Canal. I really doubt that any of the Canadian companies would want this fleet.

Couldn’t a Canadian company simply have a U.S. company operate the vessels? In this way, the ships could continue with their current trade routes. Such an arrangement is used by CN and Keystone Shipping right now.

[Denny]

You are correct as the Great Republic at 635 X 68 would be the only vessel from their fleet to transit the Welland Canal and the Seaway Locks. The rest of their fleet is much too long and wide for the Welland along with the Seaway Locks.

[Guest]

Wonder if a Canadian company would buy the fleet to get their hands on some well maintained thousand footers and smaller boats?

With inflation running high, the cost of new builds in China must be going up. GLF could be a bargain.

If I understand correctly, only one of the ships can go through the Welland Canal. I really doubt that any of the Canadian companies would want this fleet.

A Canadian firm did place a bid on the fleet.

[cpfan]

Wonder if a Canadian company would buy the fleet to get their hands on some well maintained thousand footers and smaller boats?

With inflation running high, the cost of new builds in China must be going up. GLF could be a bargain.

If I understand correctly, only one of the ships can go through the Welland Canal. I really doubt that any of the Canadian companies would want this fleet.