John Sherwin

[Guest]

When the Fitz went down how far away on Lake Superior was the Sherwin?

[Denny]

There’s now 2 vessels that can be removed from the layup list both of which have departed. The Saginaw departed its layup in Erie, PA. headed to Toledo to load. Also, as one poster mentioned the Algoma Guardian has left their layup in Montreal today sailing to Becancour, Quebec.

[Jared]

They fired up the boiler and engine on the Ryerson last June and she passed with flying colors. The problem is she's still steam and not a self unloader. And despite what is repeatedly claimed about hulls "being in good shape", steel ages too.

A little bit off topic, but the Iowa Class BBs of the Navy have served no more than 17 years of service despite being 80+ years old. The curator of the BB New Jersey said that during the last administration, a bunch of naval architects came out to gauge the strength of the steel compared to an sample of the same quality of steel made today and compared to a sample that has been held in storage (inside, heated, and not exposed to any elements). And the results were that the steel on the 80 year old BB had lost 46% of it strength.

So now that we are pushing the better part of a half century of age for the majority of the fleet, the hulls themselves have lost around a third of their strength (with lower quality steel so maybe more) since their launches in the 50s-70s.

[Andrew]

The Saginaw does seem to be a little dated with its original self unloading gear and telescoping hatches. However, her repowering in 2008 suggest she probably has a fair bit of life in her. I would think that Rand would like to get at least 20 years out of that new engine. Michipicoten was repowered in 2011 and has spent most of her life under LLT working the upper lakes (meaning fewer Welland transits and less wear and tear on the hull plating), and prior to that, spent a fair bit of time at the wall or carrying grain for Interlake. Neither has she carried much salt. For those reasons, she is likely in the best shape of just about any vessel in that fleet except the Manitoulin. It was mentioned somewhere that LLT was hoping to keep the Cuyahoga until 2028, I'm not sure if the Algoma Steel mill closing or the addition of the ASC fleet will change that though.

I would certainly think that on the retirement watchlist would be the three Oglebay Norton river class 630s. They are not in good shape, carry a lot of salt, and were likely not constructed as solidly as the 50s era ships. I'm not sure if they share the reputation of "30 year boats" that the 80s era ships have, but if so, they must be within a few years of retirement as well. I could certainly see any of these three river class ships being retired before the Saginaw and Cuyahoga. Frankly, I think the Michipicoten will outlast nearly all the ships in that fleet because of the reasons listed above.

[guest]

You can take the Algoma Guardian of the layup list. It's out headed for Becancour Quebec.

[Guest]

My two cents on the long term layups:

Callaway and Blough probably will sit for a while, and may be moved to Escanaba. I expect that CN will eventually sell the fleet, and will probably hold on to these vessels to include them in the sale. I expect that the Blough has a chance to sail again because her hull is in pretty good shape yet. Callaway in my mind is in a fairly dangerous situation, but I doubt that she's in as precarious a spot as we think. With smaller hulls being more of an asset these days, her hull needs about $8 million in repairs and a new engine. That's a lot less than a newbuild, and in my mind, there's a legitimate chance she could pull through this.

Valo will get the repowering, especially with the dwindling down of the LLT fleet. I expect that will happen in several years, though, especially with the possible sale of Rand to a firm called "Oaktree" (I think!).

Sherwin is probably done, but again, Interlake must have a reason to hold on to her.

McKee Sons and CTC 1 are waiting for the torch.

Ryerson, in my mind, will have a decision made on her future on the next couple seasons, because of the recent acquisition by Cliffs. I truly think her story could take a bevy of different angles- possible self-unloader conversion, new engine, anyone's guess. With a self-unloader, she would have about the same capacity as the Sykes, and could easily get plugged into the same runs as the Sykes and Block. With talk of the Sykes getting repowered and just passing a five year, it seems as though the Cliffs fleet is going nowhere anytime soon, and adding the Ryerson back to the group is a definite possibility. So too, though, is scrapping, but I think in the next year or two, there will be a decision on that.

The coming online of the EA furnace at Algoma Steel next year is going to have a significant impact on the LLT fleet. How this bodes for the future of the Valo is anyone's guess outside of the upper management of the fleet, but there appears to be no move to scrap the vessel as of yet. I would not be surprised to see some additional retirements in the LLT/GRN fleet within the next few seasons in particular concerning the futures of the Cuyahoga, Saginaw, and Michipicoten. The unloading gear on the Saginaw, in particular, dates back to its original construction and must be becoming a major maintenance issue.

[Andrew]

My two cents on the long term layups:

Callaway and Blough probably will sit for a while, and may be moved to Escanaba. I expect that CN will eventually sell the fleet, and will probably hold on to these vessels to include them in the sale. I expect that the Blough has a chance to sail again because her hull is in pretty good shape yet. Callaway in my mind is in a fairly dangerous situation, but I doubt that she's in as precarious a spot as we think. With smaller hulls being more of an asset these days, her hull needs about $8 million in repairs and a new engine. That's a lot less than a newbuild, and in my mind, there's a legitimate chance she could pull through this.

Valo will get the repowering, especially with the dwindling down of the LLT fleet. I expect that will happen in several years, though, especially with the possible sale of Rand to a firm called "Oaktree" (I think!).

Sherwin is probably done, but again, Interlake must have a reason to hold on to her.

McKee Sons and CTC 1 are waiting for the torch.

Ryerson, in my mind, will have a decision made on her future on the next couple seasons, because of the recent acquisition by Cliffs. I truly think her story could take a bevy of different angles- possible self-unloader conversion, new engine, anyone's guess. With a self-unloader, she would have about the same capacity as the Sykes, and could easily get plugged into the same runs as the Sykes and Block. With talk of the Sykes getting repowered and just passing a five year, it seems as though the Cliffs fleet is going nowhere anytime soon, and adding the Ryerson back to the group is a definite possibility. So too, though, is scrapping, but I think in the next year or two, there will be a decision on that.

[Andrew]

It should be said that even though we are off to a slow start, ships like the Philip R. Clarke are in no danger of scrapping. The Clarke just passed a five year survey and had a new paint job and some steel work done. Of any of the classics sitting at the wall, she is most likely safe for a while. It would be foolish to sell her for scrap. Callaway needs work and could be done.

[Denny]

Thanks as I forgot about them still in layup. I guess then I had a memory lapse issue on that one. We can also add too, the Valo or Valor in Toledo along with the Ryerson but most know they are still laid up anyway then.

[Mn bob]

Denny you forgot to include the Philip r Clarke in your list of ships still at the wall!

[glcapt]

[quote="Guest"]As Roger wrote, the USACE doesn't allow 78-foot wide ships to transit the MacArthur Lock. It's in the Federal Register.

So while the Seaway Authorities allow 78-foot wide vessels to use the Seaway and Welland Canal Lock the USACE for some reason doesn't. I don't know if that's due to structural concerns with the MacArthur Lock or its age.

So yes, there is a need for a new Poe-sized Lock. Even if the future need for a couple of thousand footers looks looks doubtful.

The USACE doesn't "allow" it because it's in the Federal Register. The only way they can allow 78' wide is if the Register would get changed, and that takes an act of congress. And we all know how efficient our government is.

[CSLFAN]

Thanks guest....a bowl of Sykes ore chips and a beer sounds pretty good about now

[Denny]

To answer Guest question of What boats are still laid up? These are some that I’m showing on my list of vessels still laid up for the 2022 season.

Algoma Compass
Algoma Discovery
Algoma Guardian
Radcliffe R. Latimer getting engine block replaced
Tim S. Dool due to sail in the fall
Cason J. Callaway
Great Republic
Roger Blough
Lee A. Tregurtha
Stewart J. Cort
American Spirit in large graving dock at Sturgeon Bay now
Saginaw they’re due to sail soon

That’s about all I can think of for now. Hope this helps.

[Guest]

The ship on the earlier list least likely to sail again is the McKee Sons. She has a LOT of wear and tear in her double-bottom tanks, sidetanks and cargo hold. It would cost a lot of money to put her back in class.

[Guest]

Did not know that the Great Republic hasn't sailed. So what boats are laid up?
Callaway
Blough
Cort
Lee A Tregurtha
Great Republic
????

[Guest]

On thing I've noticed is with fewer customers, there seem to be longer lineups to load and unload. This is a situation that will only get worse when DTE shuts down St. Clair (2022)and Belle River (2028).

It's pretty expensive to sit a day or two at every port.

[Duluth Guest]

Don't forget, the SRB corrosion (bacterial) that damaged the Sherwin's hull, as well as the William A. Irvin's, occurred while the vessels were sitting idle within St. Louis Bay (Duluth/Superior). This MIC is well established in the Port and it's been there for some time. Some of the 1/2" thick steel sheet piling work along dock faces has become perforated in less than 10 years when it should have lasted 50. The Ryerson has been sitting in this bay it for the last 13 years. It's very likely that she's experienced similar exterior hull decay as the Sherwin and Irvin unless measures were taken to prevent it from taking hold. The fact that they haven't moved the Ryerson from Duluth/Superior knowing that hulls corrode at an increased rate in this Harbor, as Interlake did when the corrosion was discovered on the Sherwin, doesn't speak well for the future of the Ryerson if they are looking at it as a long term investment. I suspect the J.A.W. Iglehart, idle in the harbor for 16 years, is likely suffering from the same slow bacterial digestion. The Ryerson may not be in as good of shape as perceived; she may be just as bad the Sherwin and Irvin.

[Guest]

The Edward L. Ryerson has been laidup in and around Fraser Shipyard since May 2009. That's 13 years, and she's docked in the same area where the John Sherwin was from 1981 to 2006, an area where the water caused pitting in her hull plates. I would assume that Ryerson also has some degree of pitting in her hull plates.

[Guest]

I'm not sure what the "safest" means but if means sitting inactive for the next 20 years you may have a winner...the Ryerson is not needed...her sisters Block and Sykes spend more of their time in the sand and stone trade than ore...if I had to change my bet I would say maybe 2% on Callaway or Valo...but both are steamers and who really owns Valo...and there are 3 boats on the wall --Cort, LAT and Clarke...and with each passing day and less coal to haul the footers become more available..why is it that the U.S. fleets have all these old boats sitting around and the Canadians have none ?

You don't seem to show that you read anything before yesterday's postings on this thread. There has been discussion on the fact that it costs a lot of $$$$$ to construct a NEW U.S. hull, as it must be Jones Act COMPLIANT and therefore must be built in the U.S. Canadians, on the other hand, when they need a new ship can just call up their buddies in China or Croatia and order a new ship for delivery just over a year into the future for a fraction of the cost of a new U.S. built ship.

And by the way, Valo is owned by Lower Lakes Towing. Safest is meant that the vessel is in the better condition of many that are laid up currently and if there is a need that could arise for an additional hull, the Ryerson would be a decent candidate due to her relatively good hull condition. The Block and Sykes don't carry sand cargoes at all, only stone and slag when they are not engaged in the ore trade. The Block usually runs ore down from the head of Lake Superior down to the Cliffs mills on Southern Lake Michigan and picks up a load of stone to take back up to the head of Superior. She fills in occasionally on the Lake Michigan stone runs when they need additional capacity. The Sykes is normally on the Lake Michigan stone runs, but also runs slag out of Indiana Harbor and occasionally does the ore and backhaul stone trip.

The future of Great Lakes shipping is not as bleak as you are illusioned to think.

It's not all the time, but the Sykes does some sand cargos on occasion. Stone is her main bread and butter with a side helping of slag though and the odd garnish of ore or ore chips!! And I don't remember the last time one of them hauled coal.

[Guest]

As Roger wrote, the USACE doesn't allow 78-foot wide ships to transit the MacArthur Lock. It's in the Federal Register.

So while the Seaway Authorities allow 78-foot wide vessels to use the Seaway and Welland Canal Lock the USACE for some reason doesn't. I don't know if that's due to structural concerns with the MacArthur Lock or its age.

So yes, there is a need for a new Poe-sized Lock. Even if the future need for a couple of thousand footers looks looks doubtful.

- Brian