ELR

[Guest]

Wouldn't magnets take forever to unload?

I worked at a iron foundry years ago and that's how we charged the furnace. The magnet could only pick up a relatively small amount with each "swipe".

YouTube has alot of video's showing those magnets working in salvage yards. Claws, clam shell or buckets work better. Time to bring back the Hulett.

Does the ELR have really wide hatches - like the new MARK W BARKER? Seems that type of design would facilitate unloading.

[Guest]

My understanding after talking to my friend on the Sykes is that they are looking at the Ryerson to haul the HBI product being made at Ironville. The HBI ingots are 4" x 2" and not sure how they could be loaded or unloaded. BOF and EAF mills can use the HBI product and with Ironville being the only place its being produced on the Great Lakes it solidifies their vertical integration of mining, milling and supplying pig iron and finished steel.

Aren’t those magnetic? The could use cranes with magnets couldn’t they?

[Jon Paul]

My understanding after talking to my friend on the Sykes is that they are looking at the Ryerson to haul the HBI product being made at Ironville. The HBI ingots are 4" x 2" and not sure how they could be loaded or unloaded. BOF and EAF mills can use the HBI product and with Ironville being the only place its being produced on the Great Lakes it solidifies their vertical integration of mining, milling and supplying pig iron and finished steel.

[Guest]

So when slopes and gates were installed did they leave the original hold's "shells" in place?

[ckoster]

What boats still sailing today were originally straight deckers? The barge Pathfinder comes to mind.

Still a decently long list:
Wilfred Sykes, Arthur M. Anderson, Philip R. Clarke, Herbert C. Jackson, Hon. James L. Oberstar, Kaye E. Barker, Lee A. Tregurtha, Cuyahoga, Michipicoten, Maumee, Menominee, Pathfinder, Joseph H. Thompson, Alpena, Atlantic Huron, Frontenac

And while not sailing the Cason J. Callaway is also one.

[Guest]

With the pending shutdown of the blast furnaces at the SOO (2024), won't that free up a slew of small boats for whatever trade the ELR might be built for?

What boats still sailing today were originally straight deckers? The barge Pathfinder comes to mind.

[William Lafferty]

However, I can think of at least two ships built as straight deckers and rebuilt as self-unloaders, the Quetico (Whitefish Bay) and Colonel E. M. Young (Sparkman D. Foster), that were converted back into gearless bulk carriers later in their careers

As a self-unloader with a particularly slow and cumbersome system compared to contemporary practice and with Boland & Cornelius's early 1950s modernization program in place with the new Boland and McKee Sons, the Colonel E. M. Young was eminently expendable. At the same time Browning was looking for tonnage to handle a Republic Steel contract and purchased the Young. Browning had no use for the vessel's self-unloading capabilities, its diminished cubic capacity and heavy unloading equipment reducing its capacity, so the system was removed at Ashtabula in 1953-1954. However, as Bill Moran explained in a multi-part series in The Scanner earlier this year, that vessel originally had a unique and unusual hold configuration that made its transition to a self-unloader and back again to gearless very complex. Meanwhile the Quetico seems to have had continual problems with its self-unloading system, the first and only iteration of Stephens-Adamson's "retainer belt" arrangement, so much so it was laid-up at the end of the 1981 season. However, at that point the Canadian Wheat Board was pressuring CSL for for gearless bottoms for the grain trade, so CSL addressed both issues by having its system removed at Collingwood and its hold reconfigured. The retainer belt gave way to the "loop belt" first used on the J. W. McGiffin, and the rest is history.

[Guest]

Interesting topic. But wouldn't it be cheaper to take a current diesel powered River Class boat and remove the boom and cut out the slopes? That's got to be way cheaper than re-powering a steamer today.

Not necessarily, such a conversion especially one done to a ship originally built as a self-unloader would require a significant reworking of its internal structure. Furthermore, a considerable amount of engineering and testing work would be required to verify the vessel's strength, stability, and operating characteristics after such a drastic reconstruction. I do not believe any lake freighters originally built as self-unloaders have ever been converted into gearless bulk carriers. However, I can think of at least two ships built as straight deckers and rebuilt as self-unloaders, the Quetico (Whitefish Bay) and Colonel E. M. Young (Sparkman D. Foster), that were converted back into gearless bulk carriers later in their careers. I would assume that despite the significant nature of these reconstructions, the fact that these ships were originally designed to be straight-deckers simplified this process. Can a so-called River Class motor vessel be converted into a gearless carrier? Sure, with enough money almost anything is possible but outside of cost the main questions are why and which ship is currently available for such a project?

[Guest]

Interesting topic. But wouldn't it be cheaper to take a current diesel powered River Class boat and remove the boom and cut out the slopes? That's got to be way cheaper than re-powering a steamer today.

A repower would have a very long lead time. Get her, let her prove she’s viable, then talk conversions.

[Guest]

Interesting topic. But wouldn't it be cheaper to take a current diesel powered River Class boat and remove the boom and cut out the slopes? That's got to be way cheaper than re-powering a steamer today.

[Guest]

Perhaps we will find that the ELR has been sold to another fleet.

Perhaps, but I predict her Leslie’s will be heard again!

[Guest]

Perhaps we will find that the ELR has been sold to another fleet.

[guest]

in answer to your "grab operation" i assume you mean bridge unloaders port cartier and sept iles do not have any. you are correct about hamilton, contrecour and quebec city. when the ELR ran into lorain it must of been very costly {especially time wise} unloading with a crawler type manitowoc crane. to even think about it where would or how would they unload a gearless vessel in a us port. certainly they wouldnt be permitted to haul a back load of ore to the bridge cranes at dofasco in hamiton. probably the next move is at the end of a tow line to port colborne. where incidently there were 2 bridge cranes at the canadian furnace dock, but both the plant and bridge cranes are only memories now.

[Gortado]

IF the Hamilton route is considered and accepted it would help the city out a lot. Many of the jobs are still in the Steel industry (scrapping and blast furnaces) Another contract could mean more growth for the city.

[Guest]

I tend to agree that increased activity might not be great news. We are headed into (or potentially already) in a recession. This means more ships will probably be at the wall in 2023 compared to 2022. If they are looking to invest in the vessel to compete with Canadian straight deck vessels that seems to be a losing proposition. Keep in mind they are competing against vessels that are significantly newer/more efficient, they can carry more cargo and the cost to build/replace is a fraction of the cost of US vessels. I can’t envision the ELR going head to head on any Ore runs out the seaway. The only hope I see is if the company wants to continue to vertically integrate and use the ELR to move Ore to the mill in Hamilton as Hamilton has the equipment to unload her.

I hope for the best but the reality is Hamilton is the only economically feasible option. And I am not certain how economically feasible that route is when you are competing with the efficiencies of the newer vessels.

[Guest]

I second the possibly not good future news but I doubt they would tow her to scrappers now. Probably in depth inspections n look overs to maybe renovations n return to service in spring. Watch n wait!

[Geest]

The Canadian ore ports that still have grabs operational are Hamilton, Quebec City, Port Cartier and Sept Iles. None of the US ore docks have them anymore, other than Zug but those have not been used in years.

[Guest]

I thought I read somewhere that there are certain types of iron ore briquets (if that is the term) optimized for use in electric arc furnaces that are unsuitable for moving with self-unloading vessels. If that is the case, could this herald a comeback of some straight deck carriers in the US fleet along with shoreside unloading equipment? As for what possible trade routes the Ryerson could serve, the options are only limited by the ability to arrange for some type of improvised unloading procedures such as what was done at Lorain, Ohio when the ship last sailed. Of course, this would also depend on the profitability of such an operation. I believe that after the first few runs into Lorain, the unloading crews became pretty proficient in unloading the vessel much quicker, but I cannot recall how the times compared to that of a conventional self-unloading vessel with a similar carrying capacity. Runs through the Seaway with ore is also another option where the distances involved offset the benefits of self-unloading gear. Unfortunately, there is also the possibility that any increased activity around the Ryerson may not be a sign of good things to come.

[Guest]

So, let’s play what if…

What IF they find engineers (full crew for that matter), she can pass a CG and ABS inspection after 12years layup (in Superior no less). Where would she run?

The only answer I have is… somewhere to Hamilton.

Thoughts?

[Guest]

I know I’m anonymous, and you’ll likely pull this post, BUT I’ll start the rumor… ELR will sail in 2023.

I might not know who you are but I'd love to know who your supplier is for whatever you are on!! Never say never but they either need the economy to be spectacular or they find some super sweet 5 to 10 year contract that is just perfect for something like the Ryerson. Also if they run it as a steamer they're going to have to find steam engineers with upper level licenses who are not nursing home residents!! Working it that first year won't be fun! All the piping that will need replacement alone...the overtime will be blood money!! If I was betting, I don't see it happening.

That certainly is an interesting and positive take on the possibility of the ELR coming out in 2023. While yes I do agree with you that there are less Steam Engineers then there was 10, 20 years ago, they are still out there. They may not all be located in the states bordering the lakes alone though. Keep in mind that there are still quite a few US Flagged Ships; including those in the RR and MSC fleets, that are steam powered and there are also quite a few very bright young steam engineers out there moving up in the ranks. Its not a dead technology. Yes bringing any idled vessel out of layup is not fun; whether steam or diesel, but I would imagine there is enough competent and knowledgeable crew out there that would relish the opportunity to bring her back to life if the opportunity presented itself. You are probably right though best to place your money on not happening, it will sweeten the odds for those that place their money on it happening.

I'm not saying there aren't any steam guys out there. I am saying it's getting pretty tough to find people with the higher level licenses who can and want to work it. For example, guys at ASC, a now diesel ship company, have steam licenses and some experience working them in the past. Do you think that they're going to give up their company seniority just to work a boat that hasn't run since 2008-2009 and may only run a little while? The Sykes took 2 years to find a permanent 1st Assistant Engineer. So you need to get 4 guys plus at least one or two relief guys to run this thing. Most of the guys that were relieving as 1st on the Sykes were in their 60's even 70's. Youngsters may have 3rds licenses maybe even a few 2nds but it's going to be an S.O.B. to get the higher level talent!! I have a Chief's license for Steam and have worked as 1st. I'm not saying that you can't find anyone, but it's not going to be easy. Once you lose a talent or a capability it's Hell getting it back. Plus everyone who worked the Ryerson is either retired or out of the industry. All that knowledge is gone. You'll be the one legged man in a butt kicking contest!!