Cleveland Cliffs Plans for Middletown mill

[Guest]

The BHP website has a paper on the pilot project they are working on which includes a DRI plant and the Electric Smelter Furnace. Yes, it's very similar to an EAF, but there are some subtle differences. https://www.bhp.com/news/bhp-insights/2 ... ng-furnace

[Guest]

It appears "yahoo.com" comment section doesn't appear to be working or maybe I'm the yahoo?

It can take awhile to show up and they usually put an ad up first. There were several comments to the article.
Regarding Blast Furnaces -

US Blast Furnaces are just a tiny number compared to the number of BF in the world. According to the Global Steel Plant Tracker - Global Energy Markets "Count of Iron and Steel Plants by Production Methods" In 2024, there are 397 active Blast Furnaces in the world. Of that number, 241 are in China and 9 are in the United States. Of the 1079 steel production plants of all kinds, China has 345. The US has 84. The bulk of the US plants are EAF's. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

I say some other country has a long way to go before anyone can count a finger at the US

[Guest]

What the pilot project in Australia does and what the Yahoo article I linked completely omitted is that the DRI will be produced from low-grade iron ore and not high-grade iron ore pellets.

https://magazine.cim.org/en/news/2024/r ... roject-en/

[guest]

It appears "yahoo.com" comment section doesn't appear to be working or maybe I'm the yahoo?

[Guest]

I'm someone who works in the meteorology field, but I'm also someone who has followed the Great Lakes shipping and steel industry since the mid-1970s.

I want the domestic industry to succeed and grab a larger share of the global steel production pie. But industry shouldn't keep using antiquated, outdated and inefficient technology such as bast furnaces that produce so much CO2, when there is much better technology available. And I'm not saying to dispense with iron ore, instead I'm saying that the integrated steel industry needs to embrace DRI-BOF to a greater degree then what has occurred so far. BTW, over 80% of raw steel production is now made in EAFs in the US. How many of those EAFs use DRI?

That's why Nippon's purchase is such a good deal for U.S. Steel, as it brings in a company with deeper pockets, willing to make the serious investments that net-zero carbon emission reductions by 2050 will require.

[Guest]

Interesting that the first question in the comment section of that Yahoo article is one I'd ask too - how is this "new technology" any different than all the existing electric arc furnaces?

Cleveland Cliffs built the Toledo DRI plant to supply EAFs.

[Under_Pressure]

"in the climate crisis they must go."

LOL OK... that kind of thought process is exactly what has killed steelmaking and any number of other domestic heavy industries. The willingness to sacrifice the fundamental processes that have created the modern world we all enjoy in order to "solve" some environmental or health issue that is exaggerated to the point of absurdity if it even exists at all is what has crippled this nation and the western world in general. But in any event, one way or another ore has to be able to be turned into steel. If you are going to have a domestic steel industry, you can't just use scrap to fulfill all your production needs. So whether it's blast furnaces or the mills all change to EAF and use HBI or some other semi-processed form for the virgin iron, someone somewhere needs to be using ore as a feedstock.

[Guest]

Rio Tinto and BHP are working on a pilot electric smelter furnace in Australia: https://www.yahoo.com/tech/two-worlds-b ... 00468.html

Blast furnaces are dying and in the climate crisis they must go.

[Guest]

We are kind of seeing that now with Boeing and the legacy automakers.

Business schools call it "creative destruction". Add in completion is overseas and isn't playing by the same set of rules regarding regulations, protective tariffs, and wages.

[Guest]

When and if you all get a chance, read this....

And the Wolf Finally Came: The Decline and Fall of the American Steel Industry (Pih Series in Social and Labor History) Paperback – July 6, 1988
by John Hoerr (Author)

A veteran reporter of American labor analyzes the spectacular and tragic collapse of the steel industry in the 1980s. John Hoerr’s account of these events stretches from the industrywide bargaining failures of 1982 to the crippling work stoppage at USX (U.S. Steel) in 1986-87. He interviewed scores of steelworkers, company managers at all levels, and union officials, and was present at many of the crucial events he describes. Using historical flashbacks to the origins of the steel industry, particularly in the Monongahela Valley of southwestern Pennsylvania, he shows how an obsolete and adversarial relationship between management and labor made it impossible for the industry to adapt to shattering changes in the global economy.

[Guest]

Just like the US auto industry now has Tesla and the transplants which are way more successful than the legacy US auto makers. The US steel industry has Nucor and Steel Dynamics which has replaced all the legacy steel makers who have gone bust. None of those companies have unions.

Cleveland Cliffs is the outlier. Their survival will depend on conversion to EAF's and what their long term liabilities they have when they took over several legacy companies. I believe Cliffs has used bankruptcy to eliminate some of those legacy costs - Canada for example.

But yes, blast furnaces will ultimately shut down. But DRI will keep some Great Lakes ore boats running years from now.

[Guest]

That was exactly my point.

[Geest]

We all have our opinion of the remaining traditional mills. I don’t share your positive attitude. I’ve watched 80% of them go away starting in the late 1970s. Handwriting is on the wall and it’s fading. Middletown may be getting some federal money but overall bidens administration is anti fossil fuel industry. The “ green crowd” is running the show. USS will go away if they aren’t bought out. They simply can’t stay afloat by themselves much longer. Their stock is junk and they don’t have the capital to invest long term, look at the mon valley mill. Big Canceled $ improvement and modernization plans. There are countless reasons to debate what happened to the mighty mills but I’m not going down that road. Granite city is dead as the furnace there was shut down. I live a few miles from the ecorse mill and it’s a huge testimate to what’s happened since about 1960. The long militant USW strikes of the late 50s and early 60s led to the eventual shuttering of mills. It opened the door for a wave of imports. The nation needed steel so industry went shopping overseas. Just a long prolonged death of US mills. No different than the auto industry. Nippon is a perfect fit to shore up what’s left of USS. Cliffs is way over extended to buy USS and the deal would never be approved by regulators. They tried to low ball the purchase price. Nippon has had a positive experience in North America for years. They have Union plants so the “ protectionism “ argument” doesn’t hold water. What they do have is enormous working capital and the marketing power to international markets to grow and utilize most of USS remaining capacity. Without major infusion of investment $ USS will also go the way of all the past big name mills. The shipping industry will follow suit. You can’t run 70-80 yr old ships forever. By 2030 a dozen more US fleet lakers will be in the scrapyards. It’s a captive market of less cargo demand and old ships for the US fleet.

As someone who has observed the shipping and steel industries since the 1970s, I have to say that I have seen no truer words in this forum. Those strikes in the 1950s really started the ball rolling.

It wasn't just the strikes that got the ball rolling, the strikes were a result of a rotten system on both management and labor sides living in a fantasy world that somehow World War Two levels of production, profit and staffing would last forever. Management knew they couldn't give in to labor nor cut their benefits or pay without a strike and labor knew a strike was the only option to get what they wanted. Strikes happened and management caved on some fronts and labor won the day, but all that really happened was that the smart money left the room and invested elsewhere. At the time it was Japan and Europe, then when they got too expensive it became China, Turkey and India where the supply is still focused now. The wild thing about all of this is that in Europe, Japan and all the "legacy" postwar spots still are comparatively vibrant, modernized and thriving in a nearly all-union environment while stateside its a knife fight to the death in the name of pay and profit. A sad state of affairs resulting from greed on all fronts.

[Guest]

But USS owning just iron ore mines and those modern EAF's down south would be a very profitable company.

[Guest]

We all have our opinion of the remaining traditional mills. I don’t share your positive attitude. I’ve watched 80% of them go away starting in the late 1970s. Handwriting is on the wall and it’s fading. Middletown may be getting some federal money but overall bidens administration is anti fossil fuel industry. The “ green crowd” is running the show. USS will go away if they aren’t bought out. They simply can’t stay afloat by themselves much longer. Their stock is junk and they don’t have the capital to invest long term, look at the mon valley mill. Big Canceled $ improvement and modernization plans. There are countless reasons to debate what happened to the mighty mills but I’m not going down that road. Granite city is dead as the furnace there was shut down. I live a few miles from the ecorse mill and it’s a huge testimate to what’s happened since about 1960. The long militant USW strikes of the late 50s and early 60s led to the eventual shuttering of mills. It opened the door for a wave of imports. The nation needed steel so industry went shopping overseas. Just a long prolonged death of US mills. No different than the auto industry. Nippon is a perfect fit to shore up what’s left of USS. Cliffs is way over extended to buy USS and the deal would never be approved by regulators. They tried to low ball the purchase price. Nippon has had a positive experience in North America for years. They have Union plants so the “ protectionism “ argument” doesn’t hold water. What they do have is enormous working capital and the marketing power to international markets to grow and utilize most of USS remaining capacity. Without major infusion of investment $ USS will also go the way of all the past big name mills. The shipping industry will follow suit. You can’t run 70-80 yr old ships forever. By 2030 a dozen more US fleet lakers will be in the scrapyards. It’s a captive market of less cargo demand and old ships for the US fleet.

As someone who has observed the shipping and steel industries since the 1970s, I have to say that I have seen no truer words in this forum. Those strikes in the 1950s really started the ball rolling.

[Guest]

There have been recent articles that the US is quickly heading for a significant shortfall in electrical generating capacity. It seems that all these new Artificial Intelligence data centers, crypto mining, computer chip plants and the growth of population in areas of the nation that need air-conditioning 10 months a year have dramatically increased the demand for electricity.

"Amid explosive demand, America is running out of power" https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... ers-power/#

So guess what is going to cost more? A lot more. Guess what the E in EAF stands for.

[Guest]

We all have our opinion of the remaining traditional mills. I don’t share your positive attitude. I’ve watched 80% of them go away starting in the late 1970s. Handwriting is on the wall and it’s fading. Middletown may be getting some federal money but overall bidens administration is anti fossil fuel industry. The “ green crowd” is running the show. USS will go away if they aren’t bought out. They simply can’t stay afloat by themselves much longer. Their stock is junk and they don’t have the capital to invest long term, look at the mon valley mill. Big Canceled $ improvement and modernization plans. There are countless reasons to debate what happened to the mighty mills but I’m not going down that road. Granite city is dead as the furnace there was shut down. I live a few miles from the ecorse mill and it’s a huge testimate to what’s happened since about 1960. The long militant USW strikes of the late 50s and early 60s led to the eventual shuttering of mills. It opened the door for a wave of imports. The nation needed steel so industry went shopping overseas. Just a long prolonged death of US mills. No different than the auto industry. Nippon is a perfect fit to shore up what’s left of USS. Cliffs is way over extended to buy USS and the deal would never be approved by regulators. They tried to low ball the purchase price. Nippon has had a positive experience in North America for years. They have Union plants so the “ protectionism “ argument” doesn’t hold water. What they do have is enormous working capital and the marketing power to international markets to grow and utilize most of USS remaining capacity. Without major infusion of investment $ USS will also go the way of all the past big name mills. The shipping industry will follow suit. You can’t run 70-80 yr old ships forever. By 2030 a dozen more US fleet lakers will be in the scrapyards. It’s a captive market of less cargo demand and old ships for the US fleet.

[Guest]

Remaining blast furnaces will make iron for some years to come. The future will bring more EAF's and other technology to produce iron cleaner and more efficient. Eliminating coke usage will hurt the coal industry, but help the environment. Not sure any president is attempting to stymie the steel industry. Middletown is getting federal money , which is a positive to making steel at home. Perhaps it is time for the industry to move beyond the process which is 150 years old. Recycling scrap is useful as rebuilding American infrastructure is surely needed. Not on board with Nippon/USS sale, never thought mighty Carnegie Steel would ever be sold. Watched USS for years slowly decline because money was not put back to move the mills forward. Today, the steel industry is still very strong and will slowly reinvent itself and survive. Hopefully stronger than ever with cleaner air/water.

[Guest]

USS rebuilt one of the two active zug island furnaces at a cost of over 1 million$.it was never relit after. 2 yrs later iron making at zug island shut down for good. The green energy crowd are determined to put blast furnaces out of business. Your current President is now in a tizzy over nippons attempted buy out of USS, yet he champions the green energy legislation that threatens traditional steel mills. Who do you think will win out in the end? Not the mills. The ridiculous formula of carbon credits or debits plus the enormous EPA fines they pay plus political pressures will bring the end in not many yrs from now. The process and technology is over 130 yrs old. It served us well but it’s not the long time future.

Big boomer energy.

[Guest]

USS rebuilt one of the two active zug island furnaces at a cost of over 1 million$.it was never relit after. 2 yrs later iron making at zug island shut down for good. The green energy crowd are determined to put blast furnaces out of business. Your current President is now in a tizzy over nippons attempted buy out of USS, yet he champions the green energy legislation that threatens traditional steel mills. Who do you think will win out in the end? Not the mills. The ridiculous formula of carbon credits or debits plus the enormous EPA fines they pay plus political pressures will bring the end in not many yrs from now. The process and technology is over 130 yrs old. It served us well but it’s not the long time future.