Marquette & Bessemer #2

[Guest3]

Not only could the boilers explode, but if it sank stern first, the bow could explode from the trapped air pressure of the car deck. That was what reportedly happened to the Pere Marquette 18, which was had the same hull and builder as the Milwaukee and Marquette Bessemer 2.

[jgorski4]

Thank you all for the input. I've read where a few years later someone found the rail cars that were in the M&B, a few miles from where people say they heard her whistle, on the Ohio Shore line. With ice build up, would it have been wise to cut the cars loose to keep the back a float? And could the boilers have exploded? I remember an episode of Deep sea investigators looking for another such vessell in lake Michigan. But, if ice cold water hit the boilers, what are the chances of most of the ship exploding? Which would answer why those found on the life raft were from that end of the ship; they could have seen the water coming in.

[Jared]

Wasn't superstructure made of steel? She would have to sit on a sand/mud fault line in order to be even close to buried. Maybe a P3 Orion with MAD equipment could locate her. A shipwreck will be found when she wants to be found it is simple as that.

[Brent]

I have seen cases where sailing ships and tugs have completely sunk into the bottom. Big difference between that and a big steel car ferry. I can believe that she may be partially sunk into the mud but can't believe that there isn't atleast a good portion of the hull still showing.

[Guest]

Thank you, and those marks are what makes me think that maybe, some of the boats were frozen and couldn't launch; those in the one, fought to keep it for themselves. Or the crew thught it was enough and they wanted into port, or drop anchor; which didn't happen, and the crew mutinied. Or...the ship was ice bound, and with no sea gate, the captain turned the bow east and that let heavy snow and high waves to enter, and the ship went down.

So, much to pin down. :D[/quote]

It is important to note that Lake Erie is a very difficult lake to weather a storm on. Being very narrow North to South a Captain is limited in what direction he can go and for how long. He doesn't have the option to always head into the seas and protect an open cardeck without a stern gate. I do imagine that the crew wanted to be in port as the previous writer mentioned but the reality is that the ports on Lake Erie, especially the ones that the M & B #2 were trying for were impossible to enter considering the direction of the winds and waves. It would have necessitated putting the ship in the trough of the seas at a reduced speed in a narrow channel to enter the harbor, that's a recipe for disaster. As for the idea of anchoring in the open lake, unless you have a shoreline for protection from the wind the anchors will most likely not hold anyway.
Personally I believe Capt. McKay after long hours of crisscrossing the lake and all the while his boat taking a merciless pounding, decided to head East for shelter behind Long Point. A great many variables could have caused him to take this gamble the most obvious being whether some of his load of railroad cars had broken loose from their securing jacks and altered the stabilty of his vessel.

[Diver Dan]

Actually, the bottom of eastern Lake Erie can be pretty soft. Earlier this year I read a report of the relocating of a known shipwreck that had been lost from sight. It had sunk completely into the bottom, and was only located with the use of bottom-penetrating sonar. They knew where to look as it had been partially salvaged (I think), but had been lost from sight. After the penetrating sonar confirmed the location, they went down and shoved rods into the bottom and mapped out the frames.

Assuming that the upper works of the M&B2 were blown off or otherwise removed, that would greatly reduce how much it would need to sink into the bottom to be difficult to spot on sonar. Then the currents can pile up sand around the wreck, and all you have is a high spot on the bottom. I admit this is a long shot unless the wreck is severely broken down, but it might explain the difficulty in locating the vessel.

[Brent]

I highly doubt that she is completely burried. I suspect that she has sunk in the mud, but probably at the most 10-12 feet. I don't know what the bottom is on Lakn Erie but assume mud and sand. Most of the wreck pictures I have seen the vessels are in the bottom structure but not very far. I look at pictures of the Milwaukee and she is sitting on the bottom and does not seem to have sunk in the bottom structure very far at all.

[jgorski4]

Thank you all! All this information is helping greatly. But, hows this theory?

When whoever was in control of the ship, placed it going eastward; causing the storm and waves to enter through the back of the ship causing it to go down.

Can anyone tell me how thick the ice gets in this area where it wsa suppose to have gone down. Maybe the ice over time pushed the ship into the mud. Every season, more ice, and more pushing down intill it's fully buried.

[Jared]

I know guys who started looking for her since the 1970's and I am amazed that over 400 square miles have been searched and she has never been found. When she is, I hope she is intact and in good condition.

[Brent]

In one story I read they offer the suggestion that the crew blamed Capt McKay for going out there in the first place. I never thought of a mutiny. Very possible but then who would conn the ship, and the captain's brother was the 1st mate. There have been many stories of people locating the No. 2 and then not being able to find it again. One story is that one of the ships from the old Poker Fleet I believe the Jack hit something back in the 1930's which some believe was the ferry. The collision stripped the wheel and bent the rudder. I would think that if it happened one it would have happened again through the years. There are other schools of thought that it is somewhere just off shore. Again one of the many mystries of ships gone missing. With technology improving every year I am confident that one day someone will find her and end the search and we can maybe find out what happened and where she is.

[Guest]

Odd numbered boats are Stbd and even numbers are on the port. I know one of the people in the lifeboat ws the cook, complete with his galley knives and was wearing his cooking whites. Seems odd but when they found Capt McKay he have several slash marks on him.

Thank you, and those marks are what makes me think that maybe, some of the boats were frozen and couldn't launch; those in the one, fought to keep it for themselves. Or the crew thught it was enough and they wanted into port, or drop anchor; which didn't happen, and the crew mutinied. Or...the ship was ice bound, and with no sea gate, the captain turned the bow east and that let heavy snow and high waves to enter, and the ship went down.

So, much to pin down. :D

[Brent]

Odd numbered boats are Stbd and even numbers are on the port. I know one of the people in the lifeboat ws the cook, complete with his galley knives and was wearing his cooking whites. Seems odd but when they found Capt McKay he have several slash marks on him.

[jgorski4]

I'm doing research for a possible screen play and will be using the background of the Marquette & Besemer #2. I have scoured the internet and researched my library to there finale kernal of information. But there are still some items I need to know, and hope someone here can help.

1) In what order were the lifeboats laid out?

2) Where would those who were found in the life boat be stationed during this event?

3) the bodies found in the spring, fall of 1910; where would there stations be during this event?

I'm a 2005 Nicholl Fellowship quarter finalist, 2006 Blue Cat Screenplay quarter finalits; and 2006,07, and 12 Best Screenplay Pocono Mountains Film festival. So, this is a sincere and critical request for information. :D

And I am a rescue Scuba diver and does anyone have any ideas where I can get some dive time in these area's? Thank you all for any and all help you can give.