Canadian Coastguard sending in the big boys

[tugboat]

I agree the traffic does not warrant a need for a new lock or any more icebreakers. The increase in winter navigation in recent years is a direct result of an increase in ice breaking activity.

[Shipwatcher1]

What also comes to mind here too is that as a whole, the new Mackinaw is a far more versatile vessel than the old Mack was. The original had really 1 useful purpose: breaking ice. From what I understand she was not very useful for summer duties, placing buoys, etc. While the new Mack might not be as big or powerful, overall she is a far more useful boat.

[Woodtick]

In response to the steel industry being shut down, remember the Escanaba ore dock is not being used and could/should still be used.

[wlbblw]

Losing the Poe Lock will not result in an all out shut down of the steel industry. What do you think steel mills do during winter? The product will go by rail instead.

[GuestfromEU]

As stated by another commenter, Great Lakes water commerce (USA and Canadian) is holding steady, but certainly not growing (and on a downward trend overall). To see another new, purpose-built heavy icebreaker would be the result only of a favorable political move, not one based on sound judgement.

Severe ice conditions are not experienced every year. On average, there is approximately 4-8 weeks of ice conditions in the regular navigation season which demand icebreaker assistance. Some years there are zero weeks. How long would it take to recover the cost of a new, heavy icebreaker at that rate (while sitting idle/underused the remainder of the year, not being equipped for best serving other missions)? Financially, it just doesn't make sense. Limited to a 78' beam, this theoretical icebreaker would not be of use in Arctic/Antarctic operations due to the smaller size.

If the USCG wishes to expand their icebreaking capabilities, the best all-around solution is to probably follow in the footsteps of the CCG and procure some second-hand market OSVs suited to the role (Ice Class A5 or 1A). Locating Jones Act-qualified vessels may be difficult, but I believe there are exemptions for government service ships.

At the end of the day, there is a simpler answer - Why should the USCG foot the bill for something the Canadians already have?

As for the comment of embarrassment by the USCG in this context, I would feel no shame in letting Canada take the lead, a country with far greater experience in ice navigation, possibly topped only by Finland/Sweden/Russia.

[Jon Paul]

Why is it embarrassing? Embarrassing that the Canadians send ice breakers to help open the shipping channels that they also use?

Well said Shipwatcher1. The CGC is not here to "assist" the USCG, they are here as equal partners doing their part to keep the Great Lakes/St Lawrence Seaway system open for all shipping foreign and domestic.
To say it's embarrassing is to imply that the USCG is solely responsible and that they are incapable of fulfilling that mission. It has always been a jointly shared responsibility.
Assets are moved by both countries to meet the seasonal needs of keeping the shipping lanes open.
In the past when the old Mackinac was the primary heavy breaker, one of the Wind class heavy breakers were brought in i.e. USCGC Westwind or the USCGC Edisto.
The Juniper Class boats i.e. Alder/Hollyhock are far superior to the old 180's they replaced such as Acacia, Bramble, etc.
The Bay Class 140's were never intended to be first line breakers but used in tandem with other assets such as the 180's or local private tugs such as the Barbara Andrea now being utilized in the Straits.

[Denny]

I think some are just commenting that there is a need for more and advanced updated equipment to battle the icebreaking is all. The U.S. Coast Guard 140s as a poster stated are all aging. Not too many replacements have been added to the USCG fleet over the years other than the Alder, Hollyhock and the new Mack. I don't know what if anything the Canadians have built new and also added for icebreaking here on the Great Lakes and the Seaway as well? I believe it's been mentioned before that the new Mackinaw is just not built to battle strong, tough and very thick ice like in the days of its predecessor once did. As one poster stated, the new Mac is smaller and narrower than the old Mac. Maybe when they first built the new one, they should've considered then making its longer and wider with more horse power. Just my thoughts only.

[Shipwatcher1]

Why is it embarrassing? Embarrassing that the Canadians send ice breakers to help open the shipping channels that they also use?

[Guest]

This is embarrassing that the Canadian CG is sending two heavy ice breakers to help breakout the lakes. The 140 CG tugs (ice breakers) are getting old and not designed for the heavy ice. The new Mackinaw is top heavy and narrower than the old Mackinaw. We need new heavy ice breaking equipment on the lakes, as well as a new lock at the Sault.

The help is just temporary. Where's the "need" for another icebreaker or another lock? Commerce certainly isn't growing.

Guest: The need is here and now for a new lock and new heavy ice breakers. The Poe Lock is getting old. With a major breakdown during the navigation season of the Poe lock ( lasting 3-6 months ) would shut down the steel industry. This shutdown would in turn shut down every industry using steel resulting in thousands being unemployed. As Denny stated the new Mackinaw is no where as good as the old Mack. Trust me. I have seen both of them at work.

[SteveGuc]

I think it's great that the Canadian's are sending two vessels to assist the USCG with the breakout this spring as they should, both our countries are responsible for the Lakes. I'm sure most would agree that it is better sooner than later. There is no doubt that the icebreaking fleets of both countries are inadequate in terms of numbers, and capabilities. The debate has been hashed out several times on this site about what needs to be done as far as infrastructure and the support of it in terms of commerce on the Great Lakes. Both countries have not invested into updating, or replacing aging fleets, and it seems the money, or political will is unfortunately just not there to do it anytime soon. The days of purely dedicated ships for icebreaking are long gone, and new ships must have the ability to perform many missions but usually at the expense of other capabilities and ultimately are "jacks of all trades, but masters of none", hence the new Mackinaw. Everyone loved the old Mackinaw, even though she was still a capable ship when she retired, she was just too expensive to operate and could not perform the multitude of missions that newer vessels must do in todays USCG. Hopefully the message gets heard and the US and Canadian Governments begin to deal with the issue instead of applying bandages to a problem that will only get worse over time.

[Denny]

I totally agree Guest but, I wanted to wait first and see just what others had to say. Yes, it is indeed embarrassing if you want to say that regarding the two Canadian ice breakers coming into the Great Lakes to help out with the ice breaking. It seems that everytime we have really bad ice on the Great Lakes, that the Canadians have to send in the Radisson and the Martha L. Black as the U.S. just don't have strong enough breakers to do the job and even the Risley and the Griffon of the CCG can only break up and do so much. I agree also that besides the new lock at the Soo we also need newer and more heavy duty ice breakers and ones just about as powerful or more than the old Mac used to be. It's just too bad that they can't somehow get her back in service in spite of her age though. There was nobody at least in the U.S. fleet better for icebreaking than the old Mac. The new Mac is just not up to the task and challenge with heavier and stronger ice. As for the 140s the Biscayne Bay is having engine issues and the Mobile Bay is in Baltimore right now. I just wonder sometimes why the U.S. also don't send in a breaker or two from the East Coast to help out?

[a guest]

This is embarrassing that the Canadian CG is sending two heavy ice breakers to help breakout the lakes. The 140 CG tugs (ice breakers) are getting old and not designed for the heavy ice. The new Mackinaw is top heavy and narrower than the old Mackinaw. We need new heavy ice breaking equipment on the lakes, as well as a new lock at the Sault.

The help is just temporary. Where's the "need" for another icebreaker or another lock? Commerce certainly isn't growing.

[Guest]

This is embarrassing that the Canadian CG is sending two heavy ice breakers to help breakout the lakes. The 140 CG tugs (ice breakers) are getting old and not designed for the heavy ice. The new Mackinaw is top heavy and narrower than the old Mackinaw. We need new heavy ice breaking equipment on the lakes, as well as a new lock at the Sault.
One spring I was on the Clarke. We we’re stuck in the ice west of the bridge with two other westbound lakers. One of the 104’s came charging west bound to break us out only to find himself on top of the windrow, listing and unable to move. The next morning the Clarke was able to wiggle free and free the 140.

[Denny]

I guess then I was correct in my thinking that maybe both those two cutters would be coming here and helping out as far as the ice breaking operations. This will definitely help out as both the U.S. and the Canadian Coast Guards will surely have their hands full. Hope that maybe Mother Nature will help out at some point as well on maybe warming up and melting and thawing all of this ice also. Will definitely be fun to see all the action and photograph it as well.

[Guest 2]

Just saw a post in one of the Facebook groups that the Canadian Coast Guard Cutters Pierre Radisson and Martha L. Black are both heading for the Lakes. They are due to work their way upbound on the St. Lawrence Seaway March 19th and 20th. Due into Lake Ontario on March 21 and then the Radisson is due to transit the Welland Canal on March 22 with the Black to follow. Sounds like the Radisson could make it up to the Soo in time for the opening and be a huge assist to Ice Breaking operations on the St. Mary's River and Lake Superior. Nice to see the Canadian Coast Guard sending in extra help earlier then they usually do when Ice conditions are severe. Both cutters will be a huge assist as the shipping season gets underway this week.