Algoma Fleet

[Guest]

[quote="old sailer". On the Canadian side where we had great shipbuilding industry it's gone. Our government even said last year that there was not enough expertise to build ships in Canada. [/quote]

Shame, eh? None of those foreign yards ever built a boat half as nice as the ones from Collingwood, Mil-Vickers, Port Weller and others.

[Guest]

A. We live in a global economy.
B. The Jones Act is protectionism and it's finest and runs counter to the principles of the free enterprise system.
C. Adapt or die.

[Colin]

I am certain that the same boats would be hauling the same cargoes to the same ports for the same customers and same owners -- the only difference would be those boats would be re-flagged and with foreign crews. I honestly believe it would happen as fast as it would take to get each boat to the nearest port.

The removal of the jones act would not eliminate existing labour laws. Any vessels working domestically would not be able to use crew not legally entitled to work in the country. So the crew would not change.

Also conflating removing the jones act with completely removing all cabotage laws is a bit of a straw man.
A far more probable situation is its reform or replacement by a less restrictive law. Either way there would still be some cabotage laws. The real question is how restrictive they should be.

[old sailer]

Let's hope that the jones act is never repelled. It ensures that some jobs remain in the US. Look no farther than north of the border to see what has happened with no subsidy and removal of import duty has done to shipbuilding . Sadly we go over to China build new ships because it's cheaper, bring them back to the great Lakes to carry ore, but we don't need the the steel made here because of low priced imports. Now mines are closing as are steel plants. Now it appears that some of these new ships may not sail this year,maybe these companies building offshore have shot themselves in the foot. On the Canadian side where we had great shipbuilding industry it's gone. Our government even said last year that there was not enough expertise to build ships in Canada. Also in Canada the government has been allowing special coasting permits which allow foreign sailers to take Canadian jobs. Anyone know who was in power in Canada when the 25% import duty on shipbuilding was removed.

[Alan Francis]

What would happen if The Jones Act was repealed?,the same thing as when The Tariff was lifted in Canada,and all of Our American Lakers We still get to see sailing the Lakes would instantly be obsolete and go to scrap,and would the Saltys than take over Our great lakes?

I am certain that the same boats would be hauling the same cargoes to the same ports for the same customers and same owners -- the only difference would be those boats would be re-flagged and with foreign crews. I honestly believe it would happen as fast as it would take to get each boat to the nearest port.

[jzcleve]

Same with the steel industry as with the discussion of the auto industry of that era. Old, outdated mill technology - never thought foreign competition would be enough to damage our domestic industry. Hindsight is painful sometimes.

[mn brett]

As the Japanese trucks and autos were imported into the US in the 60's it became quite clear to those of us driving the K cars and Pinto's that these imported products were superior in quality. this forced the American auto industry to improve their junk cars and focus on quality OR loose market share. the Japanese were simply building a far superior product. today our ships are being built overseas for far less than we can build them here at home. once again, we have lost our edge in MFG and ship building. all this while folks in congress, like John McCain, want to repeal the Jones Act. it's time for our congress to start supporting MFG and ship building just as the Japanese government is doing. yes, foreign countries are dumping their steel today -- and our American companies are enjoying record low prices on steel -- while we watch our jobs and high prices ride off into the sunset.

What would happen if The Jones Act was repealed?,the same thing as when The Tariff was lifted in Canada,and all of Our American Lakers We still get to see sailing the Lakes would instantly be obsolete and go to scrap,and would the Saltys than take over Our great lakes?There was a law passed to stop the dumping of cheap foreign steel to support our Mines,We now have a Oil issue where the Oil Company's are wound up over Oil prices per barrel at an all time low,what will happen to put a stop to that?I have seen the Union's get busted from so many industry's from the Carpenters union in the late 70's,to the Teamsters Union having to compete with 95 percent of the Truckers on the road are none Union and list goes on and on!How long will the Shipping company's and Mining Company's be able to hold back the Non Union Jobs,busting in and losing to the Non Union company's from taking over?
The auto industry as well!,Great union Auto assembly jobs are competing with foreign built cars, Our K Cars and Pinto's were junk at 90,000,but the Datsun and Toyota cars would go to 200.000 miles.
I think We are in for a Major fight coming up,when We see Our thousand footers sitting idol,what runs Our economy?it's consumer spending,Our consumers will drive past a dozen Mom and Pop gas stations to save 10 cents on ten Gallons of gas to buy there gas at Sams club or Costco,who import there products from over sea's!,so who loses?,the local stores trying to make a living.

[cslfan]

Algoma Mariner back on the move.

[Guest]

There is a very real truth in the fact that Asian car companies forced our big 3 to improve.

I worked for an automotive supplier during this period and I can tell you that the import cars (primarily from Japan during that time) did force the Big 3 to improve their quality as their market share eroded. During the 1970s, the attitude in the industry was that imports were never going to be a threat to the established car companies. This complacency was to prove costly. Regardless of our fond memories of the past, the cars built today are far more dependable than were ones built during 1960s-70s. One fact overlooked is that today many car companies that previously exported their cars to this country are actually producing them domestically and have created many jobs and business opportunities in this country. Furthermore, the Big 3 now produce many models outside of this country. Despite their status as domestic auto companies, the Big 3 are global entities with operations around the world. In fact, Chrysler is actually owned by London based Fiat Chrysler. In light of these factors, I don't believe the stigma once attached to imported cars remains relevant in today's global economy.

[Guest]

There is a very real truth in the fact that Asian car companies forced our big 3 to improve.

Like it or not...we live in a global economy. Many of my friends and family members owe their jobs to here at home to foreign companies. Just to play devils advocate....where would most American companies be if the rest of the world "quit buying foreign?" Ford, GM, Boeing, Caterpillar, etc all make billions of dollars selling equipment over seas. 10% of our GDP is American built products going for sale overseas...involving millions of American workers.

I know its tough to see foreign built ships...but I highly doubt they are built inferior to ours. Thousands of foreign built ships ply the oceans everyday.

[Guest]

As the Japanese trucks and autos were imported into the US in the 60's it became quite clear to those of us driving the K cars and Pinto's that these imported products were superior in quality. this forced the American auto industry to improve their junk cars and focus on quality OR loose market share. the Japanese were simply building a far superior product. today our ships are being built overseas for far less than we can build them here at home. once again, we have lost our edge in MFG and ship building. all this while folks in congress, like John McCain, want to repeal the Jones Act. it's time for our congress to start supporting MFG and ship building just as the Japanese government is doing. yes, foreign countries are dumping their steel today -- and our American companies are enjoying record low prices on steel -- while we watch our jobs and high prices ride off into the sunset.

[Wheelsman]

And how did the Japanese force the industry to change? By dumping, not building quality.

[Guest]

Let's face the facts on autos - if the Japanese had not forced the U.S. auto companies to start building a quality product we'd still be driving junk cars. foreign countries can build a quality product at a lower price that either Canada or the U S.

[Guest]

Let's also not shy away from fact. The Jones Act, regardless which side you take in the political argument, has essentially killed new US ship builds for the Great Lakes. So debating the quality of a US ship build versus a Chinese ship build no longer has relevant meaning.

The downsizing of the industrial base supplied by domestic shipping companies has largely dictated the lack of any significant \ US shipbuilding project since the early 1980s. This may change in years to come when the 1970-80s built ships reach the end of their productive lives, but I don't think the Jones Act has been the major factor in shipping companies building no new tonnage other than a few barges since the mid-1980s.

[Mike]

There is nothing to say that ships built in China are inferior to what could be built in the US or Canada. It's all about how much is being spent on the ship. Regardless whether it is built in China or here. In this modern era of ship building and operation we have seen less emphasis put on quality and long-term life expectancy. Think of it this way...if I'm a car manufacturer and you tell me that you want a car built for $15 grand, then the end product won't be nearly the quality and features if you gave me $30 grand.

Let's also not shy away from fact. The Jones Act, regardless which side you take in the political argument, has essentially killed new US ship builds for the Great Lakes. So debating the quality of a US ship build versus a Chinese ship build no longer has relevant meaning.

[Wayne]

In the end, money is money. You have a boat sitting, paying dock fees, scraping isn't cost effective. You follow the money.

[Guest]

Some competitors could not afford the cost of new construction even in Chinese yards. They also may not order new construction in Chinese yards because of recent troubles in china.

Besides recent trouble in their yards, I also have begun to question the durability of the Chinese ships, anybody have a thought on this?

Ron

Hi Ron! The ironic thing about overseas new builds is that even though the initial construction cost sends money overseas, a great deal of money is spent locally to maintain these vessels. I do not have any information on the latest Chinese builds, but I do recall a conversation with a worker from Algoma Ship Repair in Port Colborne who was quite happy with the fact that we were purchasing overseas vessels, as the Turkish tankers apparently leaked from day one, giving him job security and there were constant repairs needed on the Viken ships, although he said they were as tough as nails and the repairs were basically cosmetic. Probably a reason why Algoma signed a contract with that yard in Crotia where the Spirit , Guardian and Discovery were built. I grew up in St. Catharines, born in 65 , and I got to see a number of beauties make their way out of PWDD. We never lost our ship building heritage here. We just have to adjust our goals.

[Ron]

Some competitors could not afford the cost of new construction even in Chinese yards. They also may not order new construction in Chinese yards because of recent troubles in china.

Besides recent trouble in their yards, I also have begun to question the durability of the Chinese ships, anybody have a thought on this?

Ron

[Guest]

I understand the concept of keeping a ship out of the hands of a competitor. However, doesn't a shipping company have to be concerned that a competitor unable to purchase second hand tonnage will build a new vessel that is more efficient and require considerably less maintenance than an older vessel that is near the end of its operational life or coming due for an extensive refurbishment? It seems, at least to the lay person, that the idea of keeping these older ships away from competitors may actually force the competitor to modernize their fleet and by doing so increase their competitive position to obtain contracts. I'm sure this process is far more complicated and may differ on a case by case basis.

[Denny]

I have read many of the posts here regarding the Algosteel and I have to agree with some that I don't believe Algoma would want to sell her to a competitor especially LLT. In reading all of the posts I tend to agree with some that she may be on the market for maybe scrapping in the not too distant future especially when Algoma has newer and more modern ships being built overseas and coming in here in the next few years. I know I speak for many here as far as hating to see the end for a fine ship and also the Algomarine and others but, it is what it is and these companies care about making money anyway that they can. Also shipbuilding overseas is now the new norm for Canadian companies and we will be seeing more of this in our lifetime I think. The new ships built for Algoma, CSL and the new Manitoulin rebuild in China are all part of the new norm for shipbuilding at least in Canada so we had better get used to it now.