Badger Enginess, What if?

[Guest]

Below you discribe the Viking engines as not "EPA compliant." What does this mean? Compiant with what?

The EPA has mandated emission standards for diesel engines, designated as Tier 1, Tier 2 and Tier 3. Deadlines have been set for each--up to a certain date if you repower you must use a Tier 1 engine. After that date, and until the next deadline, repowered engines must meet Tier 2 standards, which are much more stringent with emissions. You can find the info on the EPA website.

[jeffbirch]

Below you discribe the Viking engines as not "EPA compliant." What does this mean? Compiant with what?

[Case80]

Maybe make a slurry of the ash in a tank and pump it out at the dock and haul it to a landfill. Railroad Locomotives still using coal have to get rid of it. I have a Steam traction Engine and when we used coal for fuel we would take it out to the field and spread it out.

[Kazoonerd]

I'd have to think that LMC has looked at all of the alternatives and is going for the one that will will provide for the longest useful life at the lowest operating cost.

[Guest]

The EPA is eliminating heavy oil as a ship fuel by 2020. 13 US steamers will have to convert by then.

Why not just go to oil fired boilers ?

As told to me by an engineer on the Badger, Due to the design of the fireboxes, a conversion to oil would prove uneconomical. She would be a fuel hog. Even now they have part of the boxes sealed off to burn less coal as they were designed way too big (on orders from the C&O railroad, her original owner)

[Guest]

First I've ever heard that they tried for money before. Where did you see that?

Any reason why they're saying the project is $16 million now vs. $12 million a year ago when they asked for money during stimulus #1?

Engineering hiccups or something else?

[Guest]

1) It is probably cheaper to leave the engines in than remove them.

2) Badger can retain its historical designations.

3) Old engineroom could be used for tours.

4) Viking engines aren't EPA compliant

5) Too many moving parts with CPPs and you would have to remove the old engines for the drive line.

Why would they want to go with diesel electric? If they were going to go that route, why not buy the power plant from the Viking? I would have assumed they would have gone the diesel reduction and CPP route. I also don't understand why they would leave the old steam pant in her. When the Sloan was repowered the boilers were left in place for heat and such as well as ballast, but the engine was removed.

[Pete in Holland MI]

OK. I own a steam tractor and kinda understand the reduction of coal into ash. I don't know the percentage, but at a 10:1 or 20:1 reduction in volume, it would seem that some form or receptical could be developed on board to channel these ashes to. Would think that this would be a much cheaper alternative to repowering, unless something else is afoot. As the ferry industry is not in great shape, if the stimulus monies would be available to repower the boat, would guess there would be less labor involved and fuel cost per mile might be better.

Could some of you old steam boat guys share any information on the reduction of coal to ash to help my thinking process?

Pete

[Guest preservationist]

You'd have to get the State Historic Preservation Offices of Michigan and Wisconsin involved as there are two states involved. Michigan's SHPO is not what I would call super aggressive. They are very minimalist and I have experience working with them professionally on a couple of different projects.

[Guest]

Assembling political pressure worked for many years for the Delta Queen on the Ohio & Mississippi. I'd have to assume that the LMC has been working that route but I don't know that for a fact. It would take a sophisticated lobbying effort. It should also be noted that the Delta Queen's reprieve was time-limited and she is now a riverfront hotel. The people who have pull are the historic preservation people. If they would weigh in, it would likely be a different story.

The SS Badger folks used a significant amount of political capital already. They've dodged a few bullets through the years. Among them:

1) Smoke ordinance issues in Milwaukee during the 1960s/1970s - the city was writing them tickets for excessive smoke and ash. Ludington, Manitowoc and Kewaunee were more lenient even though complaints were received.
2) Abandonment hearings in the 1970s. C&O would have scrapped this ship if they were allowed by the ICC.
3) Asbestos lawsuits. In the early 1980s the C&O ships were linked to at least one worker death from asbestos exposure. The case was settled for $200,000 + and the railroad was allowed to say clean up was "too expensive" and leave it as-is.
4) The 1983 Glen Bowden sale. C&O sold SS Badger, Spartan and City of Midland for $1. They sweetened the pot by giving MWT free coal, dirt cheap rent and 20% of all salary costs and all shipyard costs for 6 years. C&O would have surely scrapped or mothballed the ships without Bowden's deal.
5) Bankruptcy - the Conrad group was not the high bidder and he was up against a couple groups that wanted to scrap the ships.
6) The 1986 Michigan Clean Air Exemption and 1991 Wisconsin Clean Air Act exemption - without them, the Badger would have been shut down for not meeting air pollution standards.
7) 2001 efforts by the State of Michigan to get the ship converted. The state actually offered the company $1 million to help with the conversion, but the owners decided to decline because of the relatively cheaper cost of coal.
8) The EPA coal ash dumping grace period. LMC had to spend a lot of time and money lobbying for the time to get the ship converted.

[Guest]

Diesel Electric is hardly latest technology. Are they going AC or DC power? What kind of engines are they looking at? Heavy oil? Diesel Electric is technology from the 20's and 30's and never was very efficient. I probably have more time on Diesel Electric ships then anyone on the lakes and it is a lot of machinery to maintain and repair.

[MilwBob]

Assembling political pressure worked for many years for the Delta Queen on the Ohio & Mississippi. I'd have to assume that the LMC has been working that route but I don't know that for a fact. It would take a sophisticated lobbying effort. It should also be noted that the Delta Queen's reprieve was time-limited and she is now a riverfront hotel. The people who have pull are the historic preservation people. If they would weigh in, it would likely be a different story.

Actually, her time reprieves were renewable as opposed to time-limited. When she was up for her last renewal, political & other forces contrived to put her at the dock, their arguement being that her wood superstructure was a fire hazard to passengers. All the pull of the preservationists failed to keep her sailing.

[MilwBob]

Given the time it will take to re-power the Badger, wouldn't it be better to put diesels in the Spartin and do a renovation on her? Once completed, use the Spartin and lay up the Badger. I am not sure of the difference in the hull condition of the two vessels. Given the time to do the engine change, if it was started as soon as Badger was done for the year would is be finished by the start of the next season?

Spartan needs a whole lot more than just engine work. Time and idleness has taken it's toll.

[MilwBob]

Why not just go to oil fired boilers ?

As told to me by an engineer on the Badger, Due to the design of the fireboxes, a conversion to oil would prove uneconomical. She would be a fuel hog. Even now they have part of the boxes sealed off to burn less coal as they were designed way too big (on orders from the C&O railroad, her original owner)

[Jimbo Estep]

Why not just go to oil fired boilers ?

[Kazoonerd]

Assembling political pressure worked for many years for the Delta Queen on the Ohio & Mississippi. I'd have to assume that the LMC has been working that route but I don't know that for a fact. It would take a sophisticated lobbying effort. It should also be noted that the Delta Queen's reprieve was time-limited and she is now a riverfront hotel. The people who have pull are the historic preservation people. If they would weigh in, it would likely be a different story.

[Patrick]

Why not keep the existing power plant? How about political pressure from our Senators, Congressmen and Governors? Doesn't the power plant also have a historical designation? Where's the Historical people and the Smithsonian on this?

[MilwBob]

We can assume that new engines would be more efficient and cleaner, which hopefully would get the environmentalists off their back. I love the steam engines and do not believe the coal ash is hurting anything, but it makes sense for the company to try and leverage federal money, while it is still available, to buy new engines.

Agreed. If they are going to do it they may as well take advantage of the latest technology & engine efficiency. Even if they did retain the current engines & dispose of the coal ash (probably landfill) I imagine it would not be too long before environmentalists will be going after that, too.

[Dave F]

We can assume that new engines would be more efficient and cleaner, which hopefully would get the environmentalists off their back. I love the steam engines and do not believe the coal ash is hurting anything, but it makes sense for the company to try and leverage federal money, while it is still available, to buy new engines.

[MilwBob]

Why would they want to go with diesel electric? If they were going to go that route, why not buy the power plant from the Viking? I would have assumed they would have gone the diesel reduction and CPP route. I also don't understand why they would leave the old steam pant in her. When the Sloan was repowered the boilers were left in place for heat and such as well as ballast, but the engine was removed.

Would you really want to go with with a 45-year old powerplant that has sat idle much of the past 25 years? (Leaving a motor sit-be it car or ship- doesn't do it any good.) And the old power plant would be kept in for ballast purposes. The Badger was built to haul heavy freight cars- the loads she carries now are miniscule in comparison. She rides high, and as a result has a tendency to roll some plus get caught by high winds. Keeping the current engines in place will help her sit lower in the water.