Frog Pond

[Wheelsman]

pcolachap, if they weren't the frog ponds where you saw the layups, it would have been Hansen, mentioned earlier, with the Richard Reiss and Robert Norton, or at Hocking Valley, where Cliffs and Oglebay boats laid up, such as the Snyder, Boyer, Pontiac, William Reiss, William Mather, etc., at one point or another during that time. A year after your visit is when the Mather suffered an arson fire, aft cabins.

[MN Boater]

Seeing the name American Hoist & Derrick and the picture of the Model 254 crane sure brings back memories of when AH&D used to be in St. Paul, MN. until the mid 80s. They would build and fully assemble the cranes on site there, then test them, dismantle them and ship them out. Every now and then, when driving on the road across the river from the "Hoist", you'd see giant booms sticking up from behind the flood wall on a crane they were testing. Saw some really big cranes there over the years !

[pcolachap]

I remember visiting Toledo in the Fall of '83 and viewing a large numbers of ships laid up in the lower portion of the river. I would guess there were 15+ vessels that had not operated that season. Would they have been in the frog ponds we have been viewing pictures of? Mike

[Guest]

Wow, I wonder how many miles of RR track are in the photo of the Torco Frog Pond!

[Guest3]

Interesting information for the Richardson. Some shipping, like the old rail ferries, are around for years after sold for scrapping.

The two cranes to be decommissioned in Toledo are among the best known cranes on the Great Lakes. The larger crane is an American Hoist & Derrick Model 254 and nicknamed Big Lucas. The other crane is a Clyde Iron Works Whirley Model 24-DE and is named Little Lucas. Both cranes were designed for bucket, grapple, and magnet work.

[Wheelsman]

Interesting pictures. I was living in Oregon Oh from 1987 to 90 and at that time, the Richardson was only partially scrapped. Wills Trucking Co supposedly bought her to scrap. She was pulled from the Frog Pond to a shallow area just to the south and scrapped in place. Only the lower quarter of her hull and most of the prow and some of the stem showing her name was left. It wasn't until about 2000 or so till she was completely gone. I still can't help but notice the similarity between the Richardson's cranes, and those that were in use at the World Terminal until recently, and wondered if they were the same ones.

[Guest3]

Thank you, Wheelsman, for remembering the crane ship W.C. Richardson. She was built as the Wainwright in 1908 and scrapped in 1985 at Toledo. She was moored a bit upriver from the Hans Hansen dock next to the I-280 bridges. You need to look behind the Clymer to see her last service in Toledo.

[Wheelsman]

The partial remains Guest of Nov 25 was referring to was the W. C. Richardson.

[hayhugh2]

Guest in Toledo, where do you get the great photos that you have posted to this thread. Would appreciate bveing able to view more. Thank you, Hugh

[Guest in Toledo]

I would like to add a final note for the Toledo frog ponds. Both frog ponds were built as mooring areas for ships waiting to get to the loaders/unloaders in busier times. Neither frog pond had any kind of loading/unloading machines for the ships. It was never intended for the frog ponds to be long-term or last lay-up for shipping when the ponds were built

[Guest in Toledo]

The Hans Hansen dock is very small in size. But, Hans Hansen is quite large in the Port of Toledo history for building smaller boats, repairing small & large boats, and laying up ships. Today, Hans Hanson is the dock for Toledo's G-tugs.

[Guest]

The steamer Robert C. Norton (II) was laid up in May, 1980
at the Hans Hansen dock. I believe she was towed for
scrap in 1990. The Norton was ex Frank Purnell of Interlake
Steamship, ex Steelton of Bethlehem Steel and ex Pilot Knob II. Hope this helps.

[Guest]

J. Burton Ayers, wasn't she tied up at Hanson's with the Nicolet? If not who was? When I was there the McKee Sons, and the Samuel Mather 7/ x Henry Ford were in the frog pond along with the partial remains of some ship.

[Guest II]

Thank you.

[Guest in Toledo]

The Hocking Valley coal dock in Toledo is still with us today. CSX & TORCO were built downriver because the massive size of the unloaders, hulletts, and gravity ramps could not be fit into the small footprints of the Hocking Valley and downtown Toledo docks.

The vacated railroad tracks and land of Hocking Valley were perfect for a bridge crossing and an interstate highway in the 1950’s.

The Anchor Hocking dock remains today below the I-280 Craig Memorial and new Veterans’ Memorial bridges.

[Guest II]

Where was the Hocking Valley coal dock in Toledo? We were there for fit out one year but I can't seem to identify it in the pictures posted here. Thanks.

[Guest in Toledo]

Actually, no ships are ever moored in the Toledo frog ponds for winter lay-up.

Toledo has only one coal loader named CSX #4.

The best way I can explain the winter moorings in the annual lay-up list and a coal loader named # 4 is with another picture from the past. CSX #1, #2. and #3 are moorings which had great dumpers, hullets, and gravity ramps that were scrapped many years ago.

CSX was built first by the C&O railroad when the coal and ore business was moved from upriver locations. TORCO-Lakefront is a clone built shortly afterwards by a rival-competitor, the NYC-B&O railroad.

Toledo currently gets only a few ships every year for winter lay-up and each is important to our local economy.

I don’t know if the current in the Maumee River is greater than the Cuyahoga River. The Maumee River watershed is the largest on all of the Great Lakes. A few names of shipping getting into trouble in the Maumee River current and bridges are Michigan-Great Lakes, Salarium, Algonorth, Algorail, Maida, and the Champlain in the post picture. Does any shipping in the Cuyahoga River ever get in really serious trouble from the current? I’m thinking most shipping problems on the Cuyahoga River come from her being a little bit crooked.

Neither AmVal or AmFort are moored in the frog ponds. Any ships moored in the Toledo frog ponds are most likely to have an unhappy ending with a scrap tow.

[Cleveland]

Thank you for that, Toledo Boat Photo, I guess I just didn't realize that after looking at some Goorle Earth photos from above that area.

[toledo boat photo]

The boats that have laid up in Toledo were at the actual CSX and Lakefront Docksites. The last vessel that was in layup at the CSX Frog Pond was the railroad carferry Pere Marquette 10. She was towed out several years ago to a scrapyard near Windsor, Ontario.
There has not been any vessels in layup at the CSX Frog Pond area for several years to the present day. As far as the Lakefront Docks Frog Pond the last lakeboat to layup there was the J. Burton Ayers. She was towed out some time ago and now sails as the Cuyahoga. There are several bulk barges used to haul mud that have been in layup at this docksite for the past several years.When you see the vessels on the winter layup listings they are shown at the actual docksites at these facilities. They are not in layup at the Frog Pond area's. The CSX Frog Pond area has filled in with mud over the years and it is doubtfull that a laker would be able to tie up at this site.

[Cleveland]

I was looking at the lay-up list for last winter, and I see that ASC laid up a couple of their boats in the frog ponds, but they are of course referred to as "CSX Dock #1" or "Lakefront Coal Dock". I see as well that the Kaye Barker was laid up nearby as "CSX #2".

Was the risk you mention with upper Maumee lay-ups because of a greater flow than say the Cuyahoga or just due to a greater number of ships laying up and more things in the way?