Edmund Fitzgerald, broken keel?

[mn brett]

I'm just going buy what I have read on the highly wrote about topic,but I would think a Propeller blade would be a very heavy and a slippery object,and if it did break loose,it would wash over the side real quick,and not slide across the deck from one side to the other!,also We had a massive log Crib wash ashore at Duluth,if there could be an object of that size floating around the lake make it to Duluth,I would think there is allot of sizable objects all over the lakes like Logs and full sized Trees and multiple things,That could have washed aboard the Fitz and tore off vent covers and cables!
It was reported a Salty or Canadian Boat had been on the Radio with McSorley,and He over heard McSorley yelling to His crew to stay off of the deck,so that being said there must have been something on board a Man could do to solve a problem,risking the chance He could get washed over board! mn brett

[Russ]

The Fitzgerald had its last inspection for certification on 9 April 1975 at Toledo.

The Fitzgerald had a Spar Deck Inspection, also at Toledo, on 31 October 1975.

There is no indication in the Marine Casualty report on the loss of the Fitzgerald that the Fitzgerald was in dry dock at any time during 1975 except for the two dates mentioned above.

[Old Man]

Before propellers were cast from single molds, almost all boats carried spare blades in case one was lost/damaged. The spares went aboard when the boat came out. Since the blades were bolted on they could be replaced as soon as the boat was dry docked because the boat would have the suitable blade (bucket) readily available.

[garbear]

I've been reading with interest all the Fitzgerald posts. I find it very hard to believe the keel was such that there was a gap between the plates. I would like to know how much steel they carried to eliminate the gap. The posts make it sound like it was an ongoing situation. I can't believe that Columbia would have been that negligent or derelict to let a problem like that continue. My dad had a friend who sailed on the Fitzgerald for 10 years and I don't remember there being stories about the boat not being seaworthy. Why would you spend 10 years on a boat that wasn't seaworthy? My Dad grew up with the Fitzgerald crew member and they sailed together in the 40s. His friend was a lifelong Great Lakes sailor, so I doubt if you stay on an unsafe boat when you don't have to. Also, the mention by "Tugboat Jim" of Ronnie Roman brings back memories. I sailed with Ronnie on the Clarke for 3-4 years. In the video it almost wanted you to believe Ronnie spent his whole career on the Anderson.
I also don't see any reason why the extra prop blade would have been loosened in anticipation of being used as a replacement. It's been 38 years since I was on the Clarke and if I'm not mistaken the blade was secured to the deck in three places, two on the hub and one being a bolt thru a hole in the blade that secured it to the deck. At least on the Clarke there would have been so much paint on the bolts/nuts/brackets there's no way we could have loosened them before hand.
I'd never read the story about the Fitzgerald going into Bay shortly before it sank. One of its last couple trips it took pellets to Indiana Harbor, according to one of the Stonehouse books, so it definitely was in the area. Not to say it couldn't have gone there if it was on Lake Huron, but on its previous trip it probably was in Toledo, so it was near that yard. If it went to Bay did something happen during or right before the Lake Michigan trip that required attention. Sorry for all the rambling on, but I felt like making some comments on the subject.

[Guest]

Speaking of spare propeller blade stowage, I remember the Armco sailing for at least a couple of years during the 1970s sailing with two blades stowed vertically in front of the forward cabins with one on each side of the mast. Does anyone have any idea why this was done?

I don't think you mean in front of the forward cabins. I think you mean aft cabins. The mast in the forward end isn't in front of the cabins. Doesn't make sense to have the blades on the opposite end of the boat from where they would be needed.

Sorry. You are right, I meant in front of the aft cabins. I must have typing too quickly!

[Guest]

My primary question concerning a broken or loose keel is how long would a ship last with such a defect? In addition, once this fact spread through the onboard rumor mill, I would expect several of the crew wanting to leave the ship. In all the accounts of the Fitzgerald I have read, I don't recall anything concerning a high turnover rate among its crew.

[Guest]

I worked relief a couple years on the Bethlehem Fleet. I did not sail on the Homer, but a couple guys that did said that under certain conditions the hull "worked" very odd. But I would think it was scraped as excess tonnage, just like we've seen with the Burton and possible others to come.

[garbear]

Speaking of spare propeller blade stowage, I remember the Armco sailing for at least a couple of years during the 1970s sailing with two blades stowed vertically in front of the forward cabins with one on each side of the mast. Does anyone have any idea why this was done?

I don't think you mean in front of the forward cabins. I think you mean aft cabins. The mast in the forward end isn't in front of the cabins. Doesn't make sense to have the blades on the opposite end of the boat from where they would be needed.

[hugh3]

Similar conclusions were found to be involved in the " M.V. Derbyshire" sinking and were not resolved until the Company was required by the courts.

[Guest]

I came across this video from IntoWisOutdoors a year ago or so. I was captivated by the story Tugboat Jim told, being in such a circle of common sailors. Whether this video answers questions, raises new ones or just gets passed over as hearsay, it's absolutely great information. The question about the Fitzgerald's keel arises around 6:30.00 and the interview is over by the 11:30.00 mark.

http://youtu.be/cnoZlZU2Mqs

That's interesting but Bethlehem put a ton of money into lengthening the Homer and the lack of a boom killed her. I worked with guys who sailed on the A.B. Homer and Fitz they never mentioned a "loose keel". If their was a class wide issue or a manufacturing issue it seems the Herbert C. Jackson and AAA's would have the same issues seeing the Jackson was built right after, and the Fitz was essentially an expanded version of the GLEW AAA's. Abuse and ware and tear could have caused issues but I don't think it was a manufacturing or class wide issue.

I have agreed with your assessment since I first heard of the loose keel talk nearly 30 years ago. The fact the Homer had a short career, and was removed from service shortly after the Fitzgerald has given fuel to those advocating a major design issue with the class. The truth, however, is that economic conditions and a lack of a self-unloading capability spelled the end for the Homer.

[Guest]

I came across this video from IntoWisOutdoors a year ago or so. I was captivated by the story Tugboat Jim told, being in such a circle of common sailors. Whether this video answers questions, raises new ones or just gets passed over as hearsay, it's absolutely great information. The question about the Fitzgerald's keel arises around 6:30.00 and the interview is over by the 11:30.00 mark.

http://youtu.be/cnoZlZU2Mqs

That's interesting but Bethlehem put a ton of money into lengthening the Homer and the lack of a boom killed her. I worked with guys who sailed on the A.B. Homer and Fitz they never mentioned a "loose keel". If their was a class wide issue or a manufacturing issue it seems the Herbert C. Jackson and AAA's would have the same issues seeing the Jackson was built right after, and the Fitz was essentially an expanded version of the GLEW AAA's. Abuse and ware and tear could have caused issues but I don't think it was a manufacturing or class wide issue.

[Guest]

I came across this video from IntoWisOutdoors a year ago or so. I was captivated by the story Tugboat Jim told, being in such a circle of common sailors. Whether this video answers questions, raises new ones or just gets passed over as hearsay, it's absolutely great information. The question about the Fitzgerald's keel arises around 6:30.00 and the interview is over by the 11:30.00 mark.

http://youtu.be/cnoZlZU2Mqs

I was surprised by the reference to the Fitzgerald's purported visit to Bay Shipbuilding just before sinking. Have never heard of this before. It seems unlikely this would have been unnoticed. Does anyone know if this was ever reported in any of the maritime journals of the day?

[Pazzo]

I came across this video from IntoWisOutdoors a year ago or so. I was captivated by the story Tugboat Jim told, being in such a circle of common sailors. Whether this video answers questions, raises new ones or just gets passed over as hearsay, it's absolutely great information. The question about the Fitzgerald's keel arises around 6:30.00 and the interview is over by the 11:30.00 mark.

http://youtu.be/cnoZlZU2Mqs

[Duluth Guest]

Here is the video I mentioned below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgSL5bNQ56g

[Guest]

Speaking of spare propeller blade stowage, I remember the Armco sailing for at least a couple of years during the 1970s sailing with two blades stowed vertically in front of the forward cabins with one on each side of the mast. Does anyone have any idea why this was done?

[Duluth Guest]

This is taxing my memory a bit but I recall a number of sources referring to the loose keel on the Fitzgerald. I seem to also recall a quote, referenced in a book that I read, from a mate stating that "she's got that wiggle again cap" during a previous trip in 1975. Furthermore, the Fitz did have a vibration reported shortly before her sinking and following a brief grounding in October of 1975. We discussed this on another thread awhile back and it developed into a great discussion about spare prop blade storage. More specifically, how a spare blade, possibly loosened from it's strapping on deck to expedite an anticipated replacement at the dock, may have come loose and done severe topside damage to the spar deck, hatch comings, railings and tank vents.

Fast forward the video below to 1:00.00 and you'll the prop blades stored on deck.

From Wikipedia:

"George H. "Red" Burgner, Fitzgerald's steward for ten seasons and winter ship-keeper for seven years, testified in a deposition that a "loose keel" contributed to the vessel's loss. Burgner further testified that "the keel and sister kelsons were only 'tack welded" and that he had personally observed that many of the welds were broken."

"The stress fracture theory was supported by the testimony of former crewmen. Former Second Mate Richard Orgel, who served on Fitzgerald in 1972 and 1973, testified that "the ship had a tendency to bend and spring during storms 'like a diving board after somebody has jumped off.'"[125] Orgel was quoted as saying that the loss of Fitzgerald was caused by hull failure, "pure and simple. I detected undue stress in the side tunnels by examining the white enamel paint, which will crack and splinter when submitted to severe stress."

This is all just speculation though and the mystery surrounding this wreck will most likely continue forever.

[Guest]

I just saw this on the Friends of Know your Ships Facebook page. I'm sorry it this has been covered here but it's the first time I've heard any rumor of this keel problem. Here is what was posted:

I used to have a chat forum on my old phone that crashed and i lost it . On this forum there was a discussion that went suposedly the keel had split on the EF and they kept driving wedges in as temp repairs untill after that last voyage untill lay up and repairs would be made. The steel is to this day still setting in a steel yard tagged as "EF". It was deferred maint that got her. She had been long abused . (If so it must of been REALLY white washed by the bord of inquiry. Just imagine if that WAS the case the law suits )

The only time i ever heard of wedges being driving into steel as a repair was if there was a hole or a crack in a ballast tank. After unloading you'd check to see if there were leaks in the side tanks from the unloading buckets hitting them. If there was used drive a wedge in it to stop it. I never saw the post but could it have been about repairing the side tanks?

[Guest]

I believe a lot of the broken/loose keel rumors originated from statements made by a cook that sailed on the Fitzgerald that was not aboard when the ship sank. If I recall correctly he was prominently featured on Fred Shannon's Fitzgerald documentary back in the early 1990s. I no longer have the tape as I sold it soon after ebay first came into being.

[canaljim]

I just saw this on the Friends of Know your Ships Facebook page. I'm sorry it this has been covered here but it's the first time I've heard any rumor of this keel problem. Here is what was posted:

I used to have a chat forum on my old phone that crashed and i lost it . On this forum there was a discussion that went suposedly the keel had split on the EF and they kept driving wedges in as temp repairs untill after that last voyage untill lay up and repairs would be made. The steel is to this day still setting in a steel yard tagged as "EF". It was deferred maint that got her. She had been long abused . (If so it must of been REALLY white washed by the bord of inquiry. Just imagine if that WAS the case the law suits )